need some snowmelt advice (difficult customer)

jackchips_2

for the names you and your company will be called by the guy who follows you to work on this system if put in the way requested? It will eventually happen either by this owner or the next.

Food for thought.

Jack

Unknown

snowmelt

so, I need some good hard reasons why you shouldn't run a snowmelt off of a loop in your floor heat system. I have a very pig-headed customer who wants me to do just that and won't take no for an answer.

this is a GSHP system with radiant floor in the basement and garage, the heat pump is 5 tons, the customer wanted "floor heat" (snowmelt) on his deck on which we installed 3 X 200 ft loops of 5/8" pex. I've already explained to him that this would require about a 4 ton HP by itself to do the job, but he is insistent that i run it off the garage zone with a "diverting valve" that he can manually switch the flow with when he wants to loosen up the ice on the deck. I told him at the very least he needs a heat exchanger to separate the systems and a proper snowmelt control but he won't even go for that.

I have many misgivings about doing this, but I would like to hear yours.

clammy

either walk or

Either walk or get it all in writing that you are not responable for squat ,do it his way get the money walk away if the HO is so smart do what he says and when he ruins his system and has wasted his money it will be no fault of your own as long as your contract reads that the design and proper operation of the system is not your responable and you get the HO to sign it and pay do what the idiot wants ,you may end up making more money after he realizes that you where right ,been in that situation as long as you get paid it may be a learning experence for the HO to may be listen to a professinal peace and good luck clammy

Andrew Hagen_2

Control

So he can afford the electricity to heat the deck but not the equipment to do it right? Personally, I feel like snowmelt should have good controls, even if it's just a tekmar 650. I don't like the idea of a valve that he could accidentally leave open. Obviously there is no way around the proper glycol mixture to prevent freezing.

Was a second HP planned for the snowmelt? Maybe typing up a disclaimer for him to sign saying you make no guarantees of performance of the snowmelt, or the heating system while the snowmelt is running will make him think twice?

lchmb

lawyer

It might not even be a bad idea to check with a lawyer to make sure there isn't a way to end run this and blame it on you. A few buck's spent now could save you a ton down the road.

Then again, is it really worth it to do a job that you know won't work? Might be better off to walk away and let some hack have at it. He'll call when he need's it fixed right...IMHO...:)

Unknown

I wouldn't worry about it.

You told him it was iffy, especially with the additional needed tonnage part. It's his call, you did what he asked. I don't mind accomodating anybody's hare brained scheme. I just make it very clear to them at the outset that it is not normally done this way but if that's what they want, I'll give it to them. However, if it doesnt work it ain't MY fault! Personally, I see what he's getting at, he'll rob some heat from the house for a while to loosen the ice on his deck. I kind of like it. Let us know if it DOES work!

Screeeeech!! HOLD ON! No glycol, THAT'S not good. Frozen water doesn't move through pipes very well, to start with. If this system exists it definitely needs glycol in the outdoor section, or the whole system if there is no exchanger. The next question is: Down to what ODT do we need to protect?

Weezbo

Obviously he has never seen a Steaming...

cup of coffee spill on a frozen floor and freeze before it made it to the drain.

Unknown

waiver

it actually has been mentioned to the customer that if we were to go ahead with his plan he would need to sign a waiver, which he seemed ok with.

I don't like anything about it either, but I did make provisions to upgrade in the future without his knowledge: sensor wire from mech room to deck etc.

and yes, we will be doing the entire system to 50% glycol, (it is in Golden, BC) about $2300 worth with the geo buffer tank & all! 0_o

the thing i like least about the whole thing is when he moves on and leaves his wacky system with someone else who may not be competent enough to run it without damaging things (if it even makes it that far at all). there should be codes about these sorts of things.

I'm going to call the HP manufacturer and ask if its ok to be sending -30° water directly back to the HP though.

Jim Franklin

Codes

Yes Zac, there is a Code since this job is in Canada, CAN CSA B214, but it just covers the basics, it doesn't prevent stupidity. By getting the waiver it's a step, but yeah- what about the poor schlep that buys this house afterwards....If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Why do people not remember their high school physics and heat transfer 101....??

Unknown

Didn't consider the next guy...

I must admit.

Unknown

Put it on a timer,,,

if feasible. Then the only thing the next guy needs to know is turn the timer on so there won't be a problems with it being left on indefinitely.

ttekushan_3

and the next guy's lawyer

just playing devil's advocate here. If the homeowner sells, are you protected from liability with regard to any new owners down the line. I would work that into the release language.

Do you think it possible to convince them of the need for glycol and at least get the loop isolated w/ an HX 'n' circ even though they'll be using the funky diverting valve? Perhaps a zone-on-a-zone diverting arrangement? This way WHEN there's inadequate heat to do the job a) the icemelt is still protected, b) its MUCH easier to rectify in the future, even if an electric boiler's got to be used in pinch.

Just thinking out loud. Good foresight though on the other additions to the system.

-Terry

Tony_23

My 2 cents

I wouldn't do it. You KNOW it won't work right. Do you normally install things that you know won't work right ? If money is the issue now, won't it be the issue when it comes back to haunt you ? Can your reputation take the questions this will present ? Look at the bigger picture and do what's right for you and the trade.

Geoff's right, anything worth doing is worth doing right.

Unknown

Done?

I got the impression it was done?

A small dedicated hot water heater would fix or serve just as well, if he's only trying to LOOSEN the ice.

Home Depot Employee

A exposed deck?

When you mention it is a deck, I visual that it is raised and exposed. You will need alot more then 48,000 Btu's (4 ton). Off the top of my head you would be looking at more like 75,000+
As mentioned earlier, a electric water heater (4.5KW/15,000 Btu's) wont even make a dent.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sounds like a perfect prescription just what the homeowner wants to avoid--an ice-covered deck. How? A heavy snow with incomplete melt followed by significantly colder weather with the "melting" system insufficient to cover even the state change from liquid to solid.

Unknown

Again,,,

it depends on what we're trying to do. If we are going whole hog melting yes, but if all we want to do is warm the deck surface enough to be able to break the ice off of it, that's another thing. A small heater starting from full temp should do the trick. I'm wondering a bit about insulation under and where's the melt water going? My feeling is if a customer wants to let me spend his money to experiment, why not? This is how we learn! But like I said, I make sure from the get go that we all know that this is an experiment and if it doesn't work it's not MY wallet that should be suffering.

Tony_23

What ?

A small water heater to do a 4 ton load ? The current house HP is only 5 ton.
What if the guy decides that he can't break the ice anymore and wants it all to MELT off ? What if he tells a buyer that he has snowMELT ? And YOU installed it ?

Have you never been the subject of buyer's remorse of a bad decision and the resultant shifting blame ? I have, and it's no fun. They want a 1/2 a$&ed install that requires a babysitter to operate, let 'em call some hack that doesn't give a crap.

I get my work because they KNOW it will be RIGHT when I'm done.

Unknown

Well, after some shop discussion, I think we've decided to outline the right way to do it and the reasons why (and the reasons why not to do it his way) in concise point form w/drawings, and submit it all to the customer and they can take it or leave it. I might leave him a couple of tees w/valves that he can do whatever he wants with, but thats it. I don't feel comfortable putting our reputation out on a limb like that, or giving any future owner a weird system that they would have to baybysit. Thanks for all your input guys, I was going in that direction anyways but its good to get support to cement my feelings!

Weezbo

ummm humm. yup.

the cement for a new slab every summer for the up coming winter ,new tubing and boiler seals due to Heavy maintenance .. ought to convince anyone after the first five winters or so