Warm Board feed back

hr

shows their output numbers to be very realistic. I've installed it in high load conditions, including large glazed timber frame and log (the hardest building to heat) homes.

I also did some infared analysis of this product along side some transfer plate installations...It's that SOLID sheet of aluminum that is the key to the output. Router through the aluminum and break the conduction path and you really see the power of the aluminum.

Regardless, the load numbers hold the key to how sucessfull ANY radiant, or other heating system performs.

Lower the loads! Seems to me any building that cannot be heated with 27 btu or less per square foot has other "issues" Like too much loss :)

Keep in mind high loads directly equates to high heating and cooling costs.

hot rod

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Mars_3

Warm Board feed back

Hey wallies. I have a contractor that is in the proscess of doing a custom home here in the Denver metro area. He is using the warm board product. this is the 1 1/8" structual plywood with a aluminum layer on top, it has grooves to accomadate 1/2" pex al pex tubing into the surface. I have mixed feelings about this product due to the fact that the only info on btu output Ive found comes from the manufacture. Ive seen a study done by Rehau that seemed to state that I could only expect 17.5 btuh @ 110 deg supply temp. this seems to contradict the information Im getting from the warm board rep. any input on this subject would be greatly apreciated. The house in question has an inordinate amount of glazing and I have concerns that with out supplemental heat Ill wind up with real problems.
Thanks in advance for any and all input.

matt.

Unknown

I'm with HR. I have done design work on a lot of warmboard projects and I use their output figures and we aggressive set reset curves.. no problems.

Raupanel is a high output product, but the "study" in their sales lit is, IMHO, total trash.

Mars_3

Thanks guys I realy apreciate the input, I think I know how to deal with this project. Im going to use the warm board as a first stage of heating, and as the home owner wants AC I'll use a GFA furnace as the second stage to cover design conditions. Thanks again. Mars

Josh M.

Ditto to you both. We are big Warmboard fans here too. I can also say that the service is second to none!!

Jed_2

Sounds like

a perfect match for a SpacePak HV/HWC, non-invasive comfort system, is called for here. One hydronic heat source, 2-stage H/C T'stat for supplemental, a simple AHU to complete the deal. Regulate the supplemental heat output from the HWC with a TMV and let'er rip.

JMHO
Jed

[Deleted User]

WarmBoard is...

The ULTIMATE heat transmitting surface, bar none.

It is MANDATORY on any home we do with GSHP, and is highly recommended for any and all jobs I do.

People kibitz about the cost per square foot for the WB compared to gypcrete, but they aren't looking at the picture as a whole.

What is the extra cost of installing the 2nd sole plate, deeper joists to handle the additional dead load, interim support beams for same and the gypcrete itself... I think once all those factors are taken into consideration, the WB is probably slightly more expensive intitally, but it can do with 110 degree F water what would require 130 to 140 degree F water with gyp. THat resuts in a significant reduction in energy consumption along with a significant increase in thermal efficiency for a mod con boiler, and a significant increase in overall human comfort.

It's going into my retirement home, guaranteed.

Matt, if you want to talk, you've got my numbers. This stuff is the bees knees. I know you helped on the good doctors (Schmidt) house when we used the smaller (S panel) stuff, but the 4X8 stuff is better even yet.

ME

hot_rod

It's amazing that at 12\" oc

tube spacing the Warmboard performs, or out performs all the other panel systems.

Keep in mind the cost of the tube is less with WB compared to the 6 or 8" on center panel systems. Less manifold ports and longer loop lengths also. 333 to 350 is do-able with WB in my experience.

hot rod

Paul_11

Mark E and Hot Rod

Let me ask Mark E and Hot Rod a related question.

What are the oldest warmboard systems that you have installed or that you know about?

When warmboard was first introduced at a RPA trade show many years ago, I saw the warm board reps cutting holes with hole saws right through the aluminum layer of the warm board and then sticking the pex down through it.

It made me nervous about using the product. I was very concerned about the possibility of a tube rubbing against a rough part of the aluminum layer on the warm board where it was cut out to make a penetration to go under the floor. Then the tubing could wear a hole through the pex.

This has happened with a concrete job where for various reasons, a void occured right where the pex touched a piece of steel meshing. It took 15 years for this leak to occur.

I have steered clear of warmboard for all of these years.

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but until I see warmboard systems out there 25-30 years, I still will be nervous.

IMHO.

Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hot_rod

The earlier WB

that I installed, probably 1999 or a bit earlier was actually more of a particle board with some thin plys. The current board is much more like plywood, no pressed wood chip crap the earlier stuff would break in the thin groove areas if dropped or abused.

The method I use to drop a tube down is... I use a ship auger like electricians use, in my TimberWolf drill motor. I start the hole straight down then lay the drill down slowly till the motor is right down on the board. This gives you a nice smooth angled hole, so to speak, and there really is no sharp edge.

You may also use a small ball peen hammer to ding the aluminum under the hole, but I found that was not necessary.

[Deleted User]

Similar to HR...

My first was around 99 or so. And other than dummies with drills in hand, we've not had any failures.

Insteade of using the auger like he uses, we have a 3/4" steel high speed twist drill with a 1/2" shank, normally used for drilling solid steel. We send it in straight down, then with the hole hawg in high speed, lay it sideways. One of my guys was using an arbored hole saw, and it to worked fine. Everyone has their own way of doing it.

So Paul, you going to wait 30 or so years before you install your first condensing boiler ;-) If you do, they will probably have been replaced with hydrogen fuel cells... ;-)

Jump in, the WarmBoard's fine.

Heres a link to an old WB thread that you might find useful. It was in Hot Tech Topics.

http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=296629#Message296407

ME

Paul_11

Thanks HR & ME

I really appreciate both of you taking the time to reply.

You got me laughing, ME, with your reference to condensing boilers.

Are you saying, I don't take chances with new technology.
I'm shocked to hear you say that.

Actually, I do, but I'm pretty careful as well.
If I don't feel comfortable, I don't do something.

And yet, I still push the envelope so much, that I still do enough weird things to keep me up at night sometimes.

Actually if you include the Veismann Beiferral as a condensing boiler, I've been installing them since 1996 or 1997, and I've been installing the Vitodens since it first came out.

Maybe since you two have jobs 8 years old, I will try WB on the next job where it makes sense that I have.

If I waited 25-30 years to fell safe enough to try it, I would hardly be able to get onto he job site to see it being done, I'd be so old.

At least if something starts to go wrong with your WB jobs, I'd have 8 years to figure out how to fix mine. HA HA

Thanks again for your input and your daring.
Both of you contribute a lot to our industry.

Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Michael_6

Rob, just curious why in a post for another product do you once again slander Rehau?

All you have to do to test for yourself is put a sheet of warmboard on a saw horse and a full sheet of Raupanel over 3/4" plywood on another. cover each with half a sheet of plywood and leave the other half bare. feed them from a two station manifold so you know they are getting the same temperature and then take readings all around-- very quick very simple. Don't forget to paint the aluminum black if using an infared thermometer.

Unknown

I do not slander Rehau, which I also use when it makes sense to.

I DO slander the test that rehau includes with their marketing literature, which makes an absolutely ridiculous claim that thermalboard and quik trak beat warmboard in performance, among other odd findings.

Obviously, the test is flawed. Those are absolutely ridiculous claims, contradicted by jobs I have in the field with quik trak and with warmboard, as well as by any possible ounce of common sense anyone could have who has seen the 3 panels mentioned. Therefor, I ignore the results of the study.

I posted that here because the original poster was referencing the absolutely ridiculous study.

Now if he wants to use Raupanel, and the additional labor and cost are not of concern when compared to Warmboard, and the small increase in performance is worthwhile.. and it is small, or the system would have to run with room temperature water.. then great! If the subfloor is in and walls are framed, excellent choice!

But that doesn't mean the "study" is worth the paper it's printed on.

Cosmo_3

I um third the vote for Warmboard

I was looking forward to working with Warmboard and I was pleased. I used ME's method of getting the tube down using a twist drill bit 11/16" on an 18V drill, with the addition of using a screwdriver to bend away the burr. It was also fun finally using a router I bought a for a home project and never looked at again for 6 years...

I was pleasantly surprised with the excellent tech support. In my opinion Warmboard seems like the most complete radiant floor system out there.

Cosmo