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ProPress, PEX, CSST, Crimp, Rubber Hose, PB, Copper, etc.

It all gets kinda depressing after awhile.

OK, so I just got done reading the longggggg Viega thread for the first time. And I admit, it is depressing.

Some of the crap floating around about Kitec worries me.

Copper is crazy expensive and the quality is crap. Plus the stuff gets pinholes, etc.

Steel is all crap. Wards fittings are still OK but try to get good pipe these days. Snort!

PVC for drain lines? Fine. But what about the foam core stuff? And some say even using full PVC is cheap crap. But then I have replaced enough rotted out CI to know that it isn't the answer to everything either.

So let's scrap all these new materials for water distribution and go back to galvanized steel pipe. Oh wait, the galvanized steel pipe available today is all crap too. And wait a minute again, I have replaced too much rotted out galvanized pipe to consider it an acceptable solution.

You know what? This stuff ALL wears out. ALL of it. And it all has it's cheerleaders for one reason or another. but at the end of the day, it ALL wears out. That's why so many among us make their living doing REPAIR and REPLACEMENT!

How many copper repairs have I done? Including freeze repairs? A ton. And you have too. And how many whole house repipes have I done to get rid of rotted out CI and galvanized steel pipe? A lot.

But let something relatively new fail and we all crap in our pants and say the sky is falling. Boy, that really makes us sound like professionals doesn't it?

Sure there is crap on the market. A ton of it. I for one, do my best to study the options and choose the best one for my customers. I didn't feel good about the Heatway rubber tube. But enither did I gloat when they had their mess.

But when Viega takes a hit (it appears to be a rather deserved one but who knows?) we have all these people gloating about how much better soldered copper is.

Have your opinions. Be passionate about them. But understand that for everything you throw out to prove your view is the only right one, there is an opposing view with just as much validity as yours has.

I guess it boils down to showing some humility and respect while we hash out the problems and hold those who screw up accountable.

And remember, it is all going to need repair and replacement. All we can do is try to choose the best option at the moment.

(Richard steps down off his soapbox, heads back to his corner, and takes another sip of his coffee.)


  • N.S
    N.S Member Posts: 22
    Amen Brother !!!!!!!!!

    I have been a everyday wall fan for 10 years. I have posted two other times.

    I have to say today !!!! AMEN BROTHER !!!!.

    Do my home work and re-search. Make my best edgemucated choices.Learn from every system and installer I meet. Make my system better than the last. Appriciate my passion for my life long proffesion. Never ever ever talk bad about the other guys system or his choises. Do the best that I can with what I know at that time.I dont know everthing and never will.There is always a better, stronger smarter guy out there.
    When I missed a confferance I would feel out of the loop.I have learned not to lose sleep over new data pouring in on from the drill I use to the boiler I use. I have learned to jump on this great information highway for a few miles at a time, then enjoy what I have learned.I have learned to say "I didnt know that", "I dont understand" I have revisited past systems of mine and fixed up what I feel I should have known better than that for free.
    This industry is rapidly growing and the technology has to keep up with the demands . Mistakes are going to be made. And we can all learn from upgrages, adjustments , corrections, and developments, the longer all materials and equipment is out there the more we will learn.Time will tell.
    Imagine what it will be like in 20 years from now.
    ( Or you can just go to europe )
    This is my best choice today and Im sticking to it.

    ( Noel sits on a bucket, looks at his boiler install, eats a dorito and sips his big gulp and says to himself " next time I run my pipe this way " )

    I would hug my kid now If I had one
  • rich pickering
    rich pickering Member Posts: 277

    there lies the problem. Getting those who screwup to be accountable.

    Coke zero here.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    strange that you would hit on this topic...

    because today, this morning, at the parts room while saying hello to my buddy who moved off the counter from the warehouse now into inside sales was telling me of one of our friends who was called to fix a system with over 5 different types and sizes of tubing some gizmotic spun into a slab...and for the most part had odd lengths...he said the guy was faced with some 3/16ths 3/4'pex, multiplex and a couple more...dude was wondering how to marry them all together...

    there are times when a guys just gotta say NO. Thanks buh no thanks..aint gonna doit.... *~/:)
  • Rich Kontny_5
    Rich Kontny_5 Member Posts: 116

    You speak many truths but just as mechanics are only as good as their teacher(s) (including the self taught aspects)materials are only as good as what their characteristics and parameters allow.

    Thus lies the human factor where miss applications, shabby installs and plain cheapening need to be factored in. Most systems have merit with certain parameters. THE KEY WORD IS PARAMETERS. Knowing these parameters applicable codes and other pros and cons put you beyond your competition and sometimes beyond your peers.

    Domestic pipe is still available as are domestic fittings,all meeting the same old specs as years ago.The trouble is prices are higher and most don't care about durability.

    I sense a change back to reliable quality and workmanship as the consumer becomes more educated by professionals such as yourself.

    Stay tuned the winds are changing,the unbridled growth of the Asian rim countries has hit some large and serious roadblocks.

    Get this "Chinese officials will not at this time allow their domestic pipe in any of their nuclear facilities" This is from an industry leader who has pipe manufacturing facilities in China.

    What goes around comes around and I and others see evidence of this through liability claims, toy recalls, food recalls and labor abuse.

    Rich K.

    Make Peace your Passion! Support our Troops!

  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    So - who is responsible and how do we hold them accountable

    Richard Says:

    "I guess it boils down to showing some humility and respect while we hash out the problems and hold those who screw up accountable."

    I totally agree with this statement; the only problem is that how do you hold people responsible.

    In the case of the ProPrss fittings in that long thread - as far as I know... to this day it is the homeowner who was left holding the bag..

    Viega denies there are any leaks - thus they are not responsible for anything; and the contractor - while admitting there are leaks - was not going to replace the system unless someone else paid. The homeowner is left holding the bag...

    I experienced a similar thing: I hired a heating contractor on T&M to install a Vitodens 200. That was the only way he would take the job becasue he was totally unfamiliar with it and what it would take (and he just wanted to install a simple cast iron atmosphreic boiler).

    Viessmann miswired the power supply and the boiler would not start. Even though the factory rep was onsite for the startup - even he could not figure out the problem. This took several days and lots of hours before it was figured out (not to mention an extra day or two of a cold house and cold showers). The installation contractor actually reduced his billing on this and accepted some of the hours as their responsibility. I endid up paying for about 6 hours for a 3 person crew.

    While the rep came back to confirm the issue (that it was a factory miswire - two wires reversed) a month of so later - no compensation was forthcoming. Since the equipment was not yet installed and operating it was not covered under warrantee - and even if it was under warrantee Viesman is not responsible for labor (and it took labor hours to troubleshoot - and in the end trace out each wire and find the problem).

    The only good thing that came out of this was that the heating contractor is now installing Triangle Tube Pristique boilers now that he has seen how mod/con boilers work (and becasue I told him that it was the 2nd best of the ones I looked at - but oversized for my application).

    When new things that are cheaper and/or faster don't work out it is usually several years down the line. How does the homeowner or commercial account hold the people responsible for the problems? They don't and are left holding the bag (even at times for brand new things that don't work right out of the box).

    Heck, you can't even get Mfrs to accept responsibility for stuff that doesn't work right out of the box. How are you going to do it down the road.

    Now I know that new things come along and need to be tried. However, I would think that a real professional would give an homeowner options on what to use and explain things (and even get a signed statement of choice on options). How often is that done. i,e: we can do it the old proven way with high quality components at this cost; we can do it with lower cost components that may have quality problems and cause problems down the road, or we can do it using something new - but unproven long term.

    I do understand that some people insist on only buying the lowest cost job. I believe that a lot more would buy a higher cost job from you if the clients were educated on the choices out there - and I see it as the responsibility of the heating professionals to do that education.

  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    as different as it may be...

    an honest as this may sound un less you make mistakes you cannot be doing much Right.

    The manufacturers do like {-mission impossible-} when you point out the minor technicalities no matter how much you tend to like or support the products. So, as someone needs to be responsible and as it is something that as someone who is supposedly fully informed of the equipment or product that they install even though it may be New or very This Century,we are doing, we take the liability for it then and there .

    Now the Government may come up with some new Law to demand Payment for working for free whilst we while away the hours doing so , i am not quite clear on some aspects of the Tax codes in those instances...and while the Manufacturers accept our apologies for using the equipment and allow us to continue doing so after showing some degree of incompetence by not noticing immediately the very subtle reconfigurations of the products wiring or component parts purchased directly from the assembly lines , through the distribution centers ,

    you may be quite sure Perry that our serendipitous arrival upon a solution will likely not go unpunished once it escapes our mouth in the form of a sentence.

    so, we have the best of all possible worlds at that moment, to choose where to go ...in their opinion of the matter.

    The homeowner or General contractor also views the work that we do during those "moments",as some certain display of all "Plumbers" in general..there you have it.... we live in a negative world.

    now, ok someone has to Pay or Heads will Roll...well, how about this?, we continue to do a good work within The Work...share our knowledge then perhaps we will have a unified voice ,rather than some one alone with the answers guarding them against the minions of Satan. *~/:)

    What is the Big Secret?

    We are likely only going through this life once and even entertaining the idea of rounds as in Karma round round round see you round as an observable phenomena...likely the next round is not this round on replay. That would basically mean what can You do in the Work ? This instance...

    i tend to look at it we do not know what we do not know,and to know that you don't know is to know..meaning that as a fellow human being on the planet we have choices to take responsibility by action or not to take responsibility by non action or to take responsibility my non action... yet there are consequences for whatever way we chose to go...

    all the work in the world will not produce a single Thought....

    Do your own thinking this is America. Thinking is still an ok thing to do here. sometimes its not a bad deal...really *~/:)

    Buh remember.....There are consequences and some times it cost you .

  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249

    Perry, you are correct, the homeowner (me) is stuck with the Viaga crap.

    I am just glad they are not a hospital. Picture going into the emergency room bleeding from a hundred cuts and being told that it is not a problem and will not be treated because your bleeding is not causing puddles on the floor.

    Yes I am P****d, and screwed by a company not willing to fix a broken product.
This discussion has been closed.