Radiant makes no sense in a Green home (Dan H.)

Unknown

I lived in an extremely well insulated house, though not superinsulated. Slab on grade, insulated floor, built in the 70's. Had mildew problems in the bathroom from lack of ventilation as well.

The upstairs was chilly (no heat at all), but the open first floor plan was quite comfortable with a monitor space heater... as long as you didn't use setbacks. When they used setbacks, it was never comfortable.

In that case, radiant floor would have made some difference, definitely. With a bit better of an envelope though, it wouldn't have.

Unknown

cool,,,

I edited the last one a bit, just so you know,

See, with radiant I DO use setback. But only the slabs, 1 degree. I set them back from 6:30 AM till 1030 PM then turn them up a degree at night while all the hydro air heat is set back. So in the middle of the night when the electric rates are low my unit(s) are chugging away storing heat for the next day. I'm trying to decide though. With an air source heat pump (like I have) would it be better to run them during the afternoon when the air temp is warmest or at night when the rates are lower. Both the garage and the basement are set for 68 air temp at night and 67 air temp during the day. One thing I have found is 68 air temp is actually feeling too warm down in the basement.

Unknown

I'm not concerned with warm side/cold side. again, if you're superinsulated, you are insulated against weather effects to a very large degree, barring actual solar gain through windows, which presumably you are dealing with in the house design.

That's an interesting strategy you've got going there. Sounds like some fun experiments are in your future as well!

Unknown

I only...

set the hydroair temp back 2 degrees due to the low water temp. I found the A/Hs run too long if I go to 4*.

Unknown

Yea,,,

It's "done" but it's still a work in progress.

Unknown

I forgot,,,

My bud Ed Taylor suggests that in these houses you should simply issue a cat for each room to provide the heat.

[Deleted User]

I have a question of the participants here on the wall...

What business are we in?

Just curious....:-)

ME

Bruce Stevens

The (Home) Comfort Business

[Deleted User]

BINGA!!!

and, what is YOUR definition of comfort?

My definition is, " Not being aware of your surroundings. You are neither hot, nor cold, and you can't hear the comfort delivery system in the back ground..."

What's yours ?

ME

Unknown

Yep

The retired guy nailed it down. The only thing in the article that is a little off is the pricing. Some of the installs on this site for a home heating systems are in the high 5 to 6 digits. Your not buying green your buying vanity.

Bruce Stevens

I like your definition

and many of my customers would as well, however I love to here the sound of a a burner coming on, I didn't say it had to rock the house, then knowing in X amount of time I will feel the heat radiating off the radiators. Some people think that comfort is feeling heat radiating off a wood stove but that is not as comforting to me as hearing that burner kick in and feeling radiate heat pouring at me. If I lat in bed at night and the temp drops too much as on a windy night in this drafty home of mine I have to get out of bed and make sure all is OK. It is probably a conditioned response but that is what comfort means to me.

Unknown

Not,,,

If I only have to push 9000 btuh through it, the price would come waaaay down. Yea, mine was 6 figures all said and done. Don't think I got rich off it though.

[Deleted User]

We agree then...

What the author of the article says is true. Radiant floor heating systems in extremely tight well insulated envelopes probably won't run enough to justify the costs.

Where he is missing the boat is identifying RADIANT heat as being the most comfortable method of heat available, BAR NONE. And it doesn't matter WHERE the energy is radiating from, floors walls, ceilings, windows. Yes, I said WINDOWS.

As well practitoned people of our trades, we come to the table with LOTS of tools in some very intelligent tool boxes. When properly trained, we would use only the tools necessary to get the job done.

In other words, if the task called for driving upholstery tacks, we wouldn't pull a sledge hammer out of our tool box. Done properly, we pull out a tack hammer.

In our quest to deliver the ultimate comfort to the end users, we now have a radiant tack hammer available to us to deliver the radiant comfort people have come to know and love, regardless of the emmiting source. This tack hammer is in the form of an electric window. It virtually neutralizes the cold sucking effect of the typical window, and if necessary, can be programmed and adjusted to actually produce a positive net gain of heat to the subject room, thereby raising the operative temperature and increasing the overall human comfort factor.

Bottom line, my job is to deliver comfort to the end user, and they are driving the bus, but I am charged with giving them the directions for the bus trip. If I see that there is an application for radiant windows that will reduce the installed cost of the comfort system for less cost than doing radiant floors, I'd be wrong in specifying radiant floors througout the home, knowing that they would be operating at such low temperautes as to not even be noticeable. And the consumer would be within their rights to ask me why I sold them something that can't do what they thought it was supposed to do...

We've all become addicted to warm floors. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, floors are not the only, nor the best method of delivering radiant comfort.

Look around at other surfaces, including the windows...

The writer of the article needs to take a Robert Bean course on human comfort. He might then be considered a real authority on the subject of overall human comfort...

Here's some information on the radiant glass windows.

http://www.rgiglass.com/

Time to star thinking outside the box gang :-)

ME

Unknown

Cold sucking windows...

heh, cool. (Or is that an oxymoron?)

I agree, we WOULD or SHOULD look at all the options, every time and treat each job individually. You're right, if radiant floors or panels is not the best choice for the job we shouldn't do it that way. But the author is ruling it out entirely. If i can go into a structure and put in small panels, small tube, small holes for the tube to pass though, a tiny air handler to control humidity, only one well for the geo etc etc, provide heat AND cool AND DHW and knock the whole thing off in less than a week, what kind of cost are we now looking at? I doubt you'd make it to 5 figures for 1600 sq ft. Is it worth it now? I'd say that was up to the customer.

It took me 5 months of 2-3 days a week to complete all the intricacies of that Glastonbury job from the first piece of Insultarp laid to up and running. I'm still not done fine tuning it and it's been just about a year. It's all relative.

Just for clarification, when I talk about cooling I'm not thinking floors, I'm thinking panels. I'm not sure I'd cool with a floor but I sure would with some wall panels. So in the case of these super houses I probably would NOT tube the floors. But wouldn't rule it out until I've looked the job over.

Ken_40

I now live in that home,

the one with R-40+ walls and roof; and have radiant.

I heated the home and made all my domestic hot water with 275 gallons of # 2 fuel for the entire year and...

I LIVE IN NORTHERN VT. WHERE WE HAVE CLOSE TO 8,000 DEGREE DAYS! AS WELL AS A DESIGN DAY TEMP OF -30F

Most of this home is radiant - what else would I install?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

I think what the author is saying is...

radiant floors THROUGHOUT do not make sense, and I agree to some extent. Have you ever had a house that didn't really need RFH in every square foot of the home to counter the load, but the customer was paying for "warm floors" and you by golly had better not miss ANY of the floor with your tubing...

Hence, why I said this gent should attend a Robert Bean seminar. He'd discover that there IS more than one way to skin a cat, or make occupants comfortable.

Granted, being in CONTACT with the heat emitter (floor) is a great experience, but no the only way to deliver overall comfort associated with "radiant" heat.

ME

Unknown

Right,,

I'm thinking slab on might not be a bad candidate for traffic area tube only. If there's so little heat needed there can't be much sense in tubing the WHOLE floor if it's well insulated underneath. Many ways to skin a cat, makes you glad you're not the cat, don't it?

Unknown

The H in HVAC

As Mr Bean says, the H in HVAC stands for HUMAN

Kevin_in_Denver_2

superinsulation, windows, & radiant

It's nearly unanimous that radiant is the most comfortable heat distribution method.

However, system cost is the most important issue to most homeowners.

Here's another good article from another P.E. on the topic, explaining how a green home can help make the forced air system even less expensive than a typical forced air installation. As a builder, I believe that the old comfort problems with "scorched air" don't apply in new, tight, superinsulated homes.

http://www.thermotechfiberglass.com/Column5.htm

While you're at it, check out my blog:
http://greenbuildingindenver.blogspot.com/

Weezbo

Howdy *~/:)

Mark,i did not check your link just yet...

Google I.Q Glass. while i check out your link.