UPONOR/WIRSBO Vs WATTS

norman_3

uponor gives a 25 year warranty to trained plumbers and heating guys on all fittings, get a grip guys.....

HeatJockey

I'm about to install my first PEX system, potable and hydronic heat. My 2 favorite supply houses sell Uponor and Watts. Can I get a quick vote from my fellow plumbers as to which you prefer. Watts external crimp vs. Uponor internal expansion. Also, what should my time savings be (once I get familiar with the system)?

Thanks

Bob Forand

Go with a pex A

Hi first timer, I would suggest that you go with Uponor or Rehau. These are 2 pex "A" versions of pex. These 2 types of pex expand to make the connection. If you were to compare a Watts crimp fitting against Wirsbo expandable fitting, you will see an inside diameter difference. The crimp style fitting is much more restrictive than that of an expandable version. There is also a big debate as to whether crimp style fittings should be used on heat applications due to the expanding and contracting of the system by nature. Can the crimp ring handle that over the long haul ? I don't know the answer to that, but it is the debate. I prefer the expandable version just due to the diameter difference of the two style fittings.

hot_rod

Both are top

quality products and companies.

Really in a radiant system you typically only have two connections, one at the supply and one at the return manifold. The tiny flow reduction of the insert fitting is a non issue.

If I were to plumb new home for my self the plumbing would all be home runs like the Maniblock system. Skip all the fittings in the wall and again the fitting restriction is a non issue.

The ONLY fitting I have seen leak on pex is that funky Odiker or cinch type type clamp. I don't think that fitting was a good match for hard plastics. Works fine on the soft rubber automotive hoses, where it belongs Plumbers around here use them all the time. Mainly because it only required one tool. I hope it is not another black eye for the industry

hot rod

Jed_2

Bob, Crimp fittings

have never been a problem in any of the systems I have designed. We sell them nearly exclusively with Viega
(Viegapex and Fostapex) and Kitec. Pex A,B,C, whatever!!! You sound brainwashed! The newer multi-layer stuff is more flexible and protective of the oxygen barrier. Fostapex is amazing stuff. Try to kink it!

As hot rod said, flow issues are non-issues. Look at a Fostapex Press fitting sometime. Your reasoning is flawed, and probably based on the "Kenism" about marketing.

Jed

Bob Forand

Just my opinion

Hi Jed, HR, actually I am not brainwashed by any means, I have not read any other posts on this subject, or anything about marketing. I can see what you mean in a homerun system, that it is a non-issue, and I only spoke of brands that I am personally are aware of. BUT... now to plead my case a little more.... How many of you guys are using 5/8" fittings to connect baseboard ? All that I ask is that you look at both fittings, the 5/8" crimp style fitting and the 5/8" Rehau Everloc or Wirsbo fitting and you tell me. I would venture to say that the inside diameter of the 5/8" crimp style fitting is no larger than that of 1/2" copper tube. And another point, is take a look at the inside diameter of any pex, and ask yourself why would you want to slide a fitting into the pipe ? And as I said in my original post, is anyone sure that the crimp style connector will stand the test of time being heated and contracted. These again are my opinions, I would prefer a fitting/pipe that you must expand to install. And not only that but I would not even hesitate for a moment to put a Rehau Everloc connection behind a wall, not for a minute. Again, these are all products that I am personally aware of and just my opinion.

Sam G._2

Another question?

Any comments on using the hand crimper/expander tool?
Thanks for the input.

ScottMP

HR

I stuggle with the home run style system. It seems to me that the design use's more tubing than a traditional system and feel its wastefull ?

How do you handle re-circulation or is that eliminated by a quicker responce ?

How about large bathrooms in McManssions ?

Scott

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hot_rod

Hi Bob, this statement

"The crimp style fitting is much more restrictive than that of an expandable version. There is also a big debate as to whether crimp style fittings should be used on heat applications due to the expanding and contracting of the system by nature. Can the crimp ring handle that over the long haul ?"

Gosh, do you have evidence of failed crimp fittings. Other then the early aluminum PB rings?

I have had copper crimp rings in use on HW BB systems for 15 years plus now without any failures.

Here is a piece of 1" DuraPex I foolishly used to install a solar panel on my shop roof. I suspect this went well over 250F, possibly as high as 300, which is not uncommon in stagnant solar panels (power outage).

Notice even after the melt down I still had to cut the copper crimp ring to remove the piece from the crimp fitting. I'd say this is a good example of the working temperature range of a good crimp fitting and ring.

I agree the insert fitting does provide a restriction. in the case of a baseboard or panel rad system the use of pex all but eliminates the need to use ells as would be required on a copper tube baseboard install. And of course the tube itself has a smaller id, but all the manufacturers of pex have tables to calculate the pressure drop.

I'd bet the pressure drop between a 1/2 dozen copper ells and two insert fittings would be close. Certainly someone could calculate that resistence, but I don't see that being and issue or "debate" in our industry. Do you? Could you point me to the room where the debate is going on? I feel I have some good actual hands on experience to lend to the debate.

In my area I see the plumbers using way too many fittings on their plumbing systems. Using ells where a loop would be better, etc. I think the pex manufacturers have some training responsibility in that regard. Pex doesn't need to be installed liike ridgid copper with a fitting at every curve in the road

Not tying to bust your chops, and I still use and embrace copper tube in some applications.

A good installer/ designer would know how to correctly apply the products they install be they pumps, boilers, or the tube used to convey the energy.

hot rod

hot_rod

Sure it does Scott

it requires a LOT more tubing. But it takes ALL the fittings out of the equasion. Which is labor and cost, especially in todays high copper $$ market.

There are limitations as to how far you can run from a ManiBlock type installation. As I recall 60 feet for 3/8" pex to lavs. In the large trophy homes we did often 2, 3 or even 4 maniblock locations were required. That may or may not pencil out, as you still had to recirc out to the remote manifolds if they didn't have their own WH tank next to them. I'd say the small to medium sized residential application, possibly a slab on grade home are ideal for a manifold plumbing system. try one on the next applicible job to decide for yourself.

It's just another arrow for your quiver, not meant to replace entirely what you use now. If the shoe fits...

hot rod

scott markle_2

expander vs. press

I think the expanded (uponor) system is a bit more cumbersome especially on larger diameters also I believe that there are restrictions on making conections in low temps. I'm big on home run, Lets face it if these systems are going to have a problem it's going to be at the fitting. I'm less concerned with potential connection leeks than de-zinking of the brass and fitting failure. Viega uses a bronze alloy, and uponor has a more expensive alloy as an option.

The Viega press connection seems superior to the crimp ring, it looks better in my opinion (stainless)

As far as expansion and contraction I'm not sure why it would effect one fitting style more than another. Pipe movement should be considered, and appropriate strapping and well placed bends to permit this movement will ensure that connections are not stressed or pipe abraded at penetrations. Fosta pex (pex/al/pex) largely eliminates these issues because it has an expansion coefficient similar to copper.

Consider this: Wouldn't a full reset constant circ. heating system experience less temperature shift than a DHW line?

If Viega is unavailable I would say go with uponor, Largely because this system is so widely adopted, Consider spending more for the bronze fitting though.

Rich Kontny_5

Hot Rod

Once again makes great sense, you have to look at the whole picture not just the puzzle pieces. I like to use as a norm 200' max loops (all the same length is the key) with a reverse return style manifold system. This makes it a self balancing system once you purge out the air.

While I use "Uponor" (I am half Swedish) there are others that are equal in quality and support. Uponor went through a major shakeup recently that resulted in one of hydronic's experts (John Barba) moving on to Taco.

I am staying with Uponor as they are a regional company for us and I have had geat product support, product reliability and product access.

Trust me Hot Rod is one of the best and like Michael Jordon and Tiger Woods many of us are waiting for a slip up. Thus far the guy has never let us down.

Uponor and Rehau were the ones that set the bar (so to speak) others are trying to catch up!

Make Peace Your Passion!

Rich Kontny

scott markle_2

brass vs. bronze

Norman,a replacement price warranty is not going to be a lot of help on a house full of concealed fittings should things not work out as well as we hope.

I have heard that years of acid rain in some regions has effected ground water PH in some areas were soils are not buffering.

I think it's prudent to be cautious about potential weaknesses of new products. I believe fitting failures are a real issue for some manufactures (see recent posts), certainly the quality of the alloy used is important.

If Pex is viewed as a low cost option, than I can see why spending more on the fittings might not be so attractive.
If you instead chose pex for performance and installation advantages than spending a bit more for the most durable alloy's makes sense to me

Sam G._2

My supply house says there are 3 type of fittings: plastic, brass, & DRZ (designed to be buried). When I asked about the DRZ, they responed that they never sold any of them as every one in this area uses the brass. Are the brass the "high quality" that you are talking about? If not, what are the potential problems?? Thanks

Weezbo

interjection?...

Home run systems in mcmansions? there are some products offered by Wee wiRR Uponor that integrate a flow through block, sans that, a half inch branch take off from a non flow through block, back around to a Heat source is not that difficult of a mental leap.

many mc mansions employ point of use in one or more strategic locations...High heat vs tempered water same same...

in those instances the placement of the block or multi port is of your choosing branch flow throughs basically don't know where they are so, why not put them in the closest proximity to where they will be used?

scott markle_2

Upo nor

I'm NOT saying there is any defect with uponor brass fittings. I'm a Viega user and my experience with wirsbow is limited. Uponor appears to be a dominate player in this area from what I can tell.

I like to believe that the Viega bronze fittings are better than Upanor standard brass because I pay more for them and it's the system I'm tooled for. The 1" pex jaw for my rigid compact pro press is very nice. If you were doing a lot of bigger stuff (1") the speed and ease of use for press pex (viega) is something to consider. Battery operated tools for the expander are available, Call me a wimp, but that hand tool expander is a bit of work out.

Upanor Wirsbo is world class pex. I just went with somthing elce so I'm a bit biased.

Still given unknowns about water quality it seems like using the best possible alloy makes sense.