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Made in China

Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
that is starting to define the world we live in today. nothing is as it used to be and what used to be never was....i took two Taco pumps apart one had a cartridge made in England the other i think was made in China. one had a ceramic type shaft the other stainless..

quietly the world turns,... its the only one we all live on ...maybe that will be new think ,like," Made on Planet Earth" might be a great thing to get a copyright for... that way you will be positioned to make millions when we get off this rock *~/:)


  • Justin Gavin_5
    Justin Gavin_5 Member Posts: 26
    Made in China

    I feel like a major dumb A$$!. I am installing a retrofit system in my house finally and I was really trying to install everything as much 100% American as possible.

    I know valves and commodity items are pretty much made in China and hard to get in 100% Made In USA and I can kind of except that (just a little). But what made me bad is that I received a all my hydronic ****. from B & G.

    I was laying out all my parts and getting ready to make a really nice board and had mounted a couple of pumps on a manifold when I noticed something that just broke my heart. I was looking at the nameplate on my NRF-22 pumps and seen that the pumps are "Made in China".

    I was really p'd off because now my system is going to be made with over 50% of foreign manf. goods. Sure I got a good deal from the Manf. Rep but I just assumed that B & G was 100% made in the USA. I have even been to the plant.

    I am thinking on sending back the equipment. I want to support American Companies and keep the jobs here (or at least in North America).

    Our throw away society is getting worse and worse. Our manf. base is slowly declining and no one is doing anything about it. As long as we can get our cheap TV's from Wal Mart who cares...right?? Wrong!!

    I didn't mean to go off on a tangent but I just wanted to let you installers know that B & G Red Fox is made China. The real crazy thing is that they cost more than Taco and Grundfos (at least where I am at). I will pay more if its made in the USA but not if its made in China, I think someone is getting (or got) the shaft.

    Sorry, I really didn't want to turn this into another political statement but I try to sell systems that are as much 100% American as possible.

    Does anyone know if B&G always made their NRF's in China??

    Is it just the wet rotors?

    Anyone know what the deal is??

    I'd like to hear and unbiased opinion.

    Thanks guys,

  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    I believe

    the Taco 005 is still American-made, and has almost the same curve as the NRF-22.

    I think most or all of B&G is made in China now. The one B&G circ I'll continue buying is the NRF-9F/LW, which is smaller than anything Taco or Grundfos makes, and is perfect for pumping little gravity conversions in small 2-story rowhouses. Otherwise, it's Taco or Grundfos.

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  • bill nye_3
    bill nye_3 Member Posts: 307
    All - American

    What could be more American than a Big Block chevy rat motor? I bought an alternator bracket from year one, waited a week, got it last ight. And guess what? Made in Taiwan ROC. And no real surprise here, It Didn't Fit.

    I think the B&G isolation flanges are made some where other than the U.S.

    It is harder to find American made.
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955

    what boiler manufacturer do you use ?
  • Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

    I've been to Taco twice to visit and tour the factory. The first time was for an HVACtv.com video shoot and we spent the day out on the floor with the employees. While there, I had an opportunity to see, first hand, the manufacturing process and Taco's dedication to quality - both on the floor and upstairs in R&D. I was equally impressed with their in-house college of knowledge classes and by the fact that they strive to promote from within. Personally, I don't think they toot their own horn enough.

    The last time, I had an opportunity to meet with Johnny White and together we toured the factory. After that Johnny turned me loose with the folks from R&D to see what was cooking at Taco. Lots of new and exciting products were in the pipeline and some of them are now available.

    If you're looking for all-American, that's your ticket.

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  • Andrew Hagen_2
    Andrew Hagen_2 Member Posts: 236

    I gave up on insisting on American when I realized American manufacturers had given up on innovation and on their American workers. What happens when we all buy American? We get cast iron boilers with zone pumps while the rest of the world gets mod/cons and thermostatic valves.

    I am as patriotic as anyone, but I think some foreign competition is good for these American manufacturers who have been resting on their laurels. Viessmann is almost a dirty word at times, but then again what boilers set the benchmark against which all others are compared?

    I would rather buy European than Chinese, and ever increasingly buying American means buying Chinese. We are eagerly selling ourselves out. The reason? Greed.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    China has become the \"world's\" manufacturer

    hard to find anything that hasn't either been built there, or built with raw material or components from there. Or at the very least the cardboard box is from China. Or maybe the printed material. Sometimes the engineering work is done in China.

    I believe B&G has their own plants in China. They have for some time now. It's not shipped out to the lowest bidder like brass fittings, etc.

    I think the original Red Fox was built by Wilo of Germany for many years??

    hot rod

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  • Justin Gavin_5
    Justin Gavin_5 Member Posts: 26

    I like Smith and Burnham for Cast Iron and Munchkin for Modcon.
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
    Made in...

    The Munchkin heat exchanger is French. Giannoni France
  • Justin Gavin_5
    Justin Gavin_5 Member Posts: 26
    Chinese Quality

    As far as I am concerned I have noticed more poor quality coming from China. How many gauges crap out after the first time pressure is applied? I think the American manfs. are starting to get on board and I am going to support them as much as possible.

    We spent 100 years building a middle class and even longer on our manufacturing base. I agree with you greed is really the culprit.

    Thanks for your input.

  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 707

    Thank you, for the kind words and your continued support. Taco circulators are made here in Cranston RI. Some components of the circulator may come from vendors over seas, but the pumps are made here. I encourage anyone that is not a believer to visit us at Taco, and I will personally give you a plant tour. Often times, I receive calls from customers looking for training. Those training classes which are facilitated through the manufactures representatives in your area include factory tours. For a list of Representatives visit our web site at www.taco-hvac.com Johnny White is very proud of this great facility and welcomes anyone to visit and learn more about Taco and the products we manufacture.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    I ask because

    I use the Olsen (Canada) condensing boilers..my research shows it was the only one designed and built (incl the casting) in North America.

    While I had some concerns re Cast alum...so far 0 problems.

    They are Utica and Dunkirks under the Olsen name here and I gather that they have been using Cast Al for over 15 years.

    [EDIT: One of the things I really liked about these boilers is the fact that they state no need for protection piping, and low pressure drop heat exchanger less that 0.5 psi meaning in a retrofit, just drop it in, and you are off to the races)

    While they do not offer a mod con that goes lower than 80, (I hope they make one) at under 75000 I typically will use outdoor reset and modulate the H2O temps, ssaving on overly complicated controls in a limited modulation install.

    Are there any other North American made Condensing boilers?
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790

    As far as I know, the ECR (Olsen/Utica/Dunkirk) condensing boilers are the only ones made in North America. The absence of a smaller model from their lineup is unfortunate.
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    North American Made???

    pickings are slim - Viessmann will always be my number one boiler choice - but an alternative is the IBC boiler, assembled in Vancouver BC. Dungs gas train (Denmark??), heatex made in France I think and the electronics made in BC. I use it as an example of the truly global market we operate in. It is nonetheless proudly stamped "made in Canada". And China is not even a member of the tri party "free Trade agreement or NAFTA" (Mexico, US & Canada)but really the beneficiary of numerous governments on both sides of the 49th trying to gain access to that huge market - unfortunately it works both ways.
  • SVDW
    SVDW Member Posts: 80
    American Made

    I was pretty impressed at Lochivar watching Knights come off the line in TN. I know some of the parts are from overseas but the plant was first class. Average age in the plant was over 40? I think. Probably the cleanest facility of it's kind I have ever seen & the folks on the line all had a smile for passing visitors.
  • Justin Gavin_5
    Justin Gavin_5 Member Posts: 26

    I do however feel better about getting products from Canada and Mexico moreover than China. It is true we are in a "global economy" but it seems like we are buying more than we are making. Eventually the bubble has to burst.
    I am going to continue to try and buy and support American and to a greater extent North American products as much as possible. Baby steps are better than nothing.

    Thanks guys.
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    I agree -

    I was just trying to point out that our respective governments have opened the door wide - with the various markets (international suppliers and domestic consumers) responding. Our governments have historically been protectionist of home front economies - but have lost that focus in recent years. This is not all together a bad thing though - we are now able to choose the best products from a multitude of international sources. Drawing this closer to home - we in the boiler industry now have superb products available that have raised the bar - not just from Germany but Italy, France and others, reinforcing the idea that fair competition is expected.
  • John White
    John White Member Posts: 120

    With regards, in particular to Weezbos comments, Taco's cartridges are ALL made in Cranston, RI. I will not comment on any of my competitors manufacturing sources or locations, as everyone has different processes and organizations. However, it is important to understand that from my standpoint the issue is not one of labor, but rather material sourcing. Manufactureres MUST be certain to purchase materials at a worldwide best cost. Therefore, while most of our materials are sourced here in the USA, some are sourced internationally. All manufactureres are the same in this regard.
    Regarding someone elses' comments about complacency, it is so true that good competition, whether Eurpoean or domestic, pushes us all to continual improvement. Taco has continued and will continue to develop and supply products to you that we surmize (with your input) are what you want and need. We always have. We have done this, mind you, with the development and care for our employees first and foremost in our heart and mind. We have been fortunate to have great competitors (for the most part) with good products, pushing us to another level. Make no mistake, continuing to manufacture here (particularly in the difficult State of RI), is no easy task. Our intention is to continue to the best of our ability and to supply you with the quality and innovation you need to develop and prosper in your own business. Again, to clarify the misconception of an earlier posting, our cartridges (and circulators and zone valves, and commercial pumps and tanks and heat exchangers) are done here in RI and Mass. Surely, some fill-in products are sourced elsewhere. They are by and large minor parts of our product offering. Your loyalty as a customer base is what has allowed us to continue this tradition in an effort to not only provide good products but also provide great solid livelihoods for lots of caring dedicated families. These are just a few quick thoughts off the top of my head after returning from a trip and seeing this thread. Gotta go. Johnny
  • [Deleted User]

    And that's why I like Taco! You're a great company.
  • Rich Kontny_4
    Rich Kontny_4 Member Posts: 73
    Good Competition

    Good competition is fine if everyone is playing on the same level playing field. China's biggest advantage is their seemingly endless supply of cheap labor. This gives corporate America the means to produce cheaply and help their bottom line.

    It is business per normal for stock market driven economies.If an item can be produced cheaper elsewhere with similar quality that is where it will be made. Taco is an exception and they should be applauded for their loyalty to America.

    China is much less a threat to America now than when they supplied North Korea and North Viet Nam with military supplies and manpower.

    However, their government subsidized and controlled industries are worrisome along with their piracy of patents and technology.
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
    Good competition?

    Sorry , i don't think so. China is cheap not just because of labor that is a small part. The other HUGE part is their complete lack of enviormental regs. "just paint those toys with lead and dump the used thinner down the drain!"

    american companies are (with some exceptions) their own worst enemy. They long ago decided to let the bean counters run the show. From that point on the U.S.A. was doomed. The quality eroded forcing folks to look to Japan and Europe.

    So now they must keep lowering the price (Wall Mart syndrom)or folks won't buy. in order to do that some wave the american flag only to have the stuff built elseware (G.M.etc) deceiving the folks who when they find out are obviously pissed and say "Screw them the next ones gonna be...."

    America can beat China just make the best products and charge top dollar . We can not win by trying to chase their prices.

    What's good for your contracting company is good for America.

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  • Rob_36
    Rob_36 Member Posts: 16
    less of a threat?

    I can't really comment on the threat China posed in the 50's and 60's, but I see their attitude towards us as being quite belligerent. A few years back, they forced down a surveilance plane of ours and spent 3 weeks picking it apart. I don't believe our 250 billion dollar trade deficit improves the standard of living of their people. It fuels their military. And what happens when the mainland decides its time to reclaim Taiwan, whom we've pledged to assist?

    As you can tell I don't appreciate our trade policy with china and don't buy their products. It is extremely difficult to avoid and its getting harder all the time.

    As far as hydronics go, last year I replaced my heating system and I'm pretty sure the only thing made in china was the webstone flanges. I felt like I had already troubled the supply guy enough and didn't have the heart to send them back. I used Buderus boiler and indirect, Taco pumps, Tekmar controls, Apollo ball valves, Ward pipe fittings.

    Sorry to ramble, I guess our trade with china strikes a nerve.

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,947
    Johnny White and TACO are holding the line......................

    DOGGEDLY!!!! That is why, they are always our first choice. The new circ line is going to give the industry a welcome American alternative. BTW, Wolverine Brass STILL has USA products, but will YOU (and the public) pay for them......its an economic decision that I deal with EVERY day. Most Americans "say" they want to buy American, but only if its on sale at the LARGE chain stores - very vicious cycle....but that's Capitalism , right? Still better than a Command Economy. Mad Dog

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  • A.J.
    A.J. Member Posts: 257
    brothers job

    I have a brother that is loosing his job at Eljer Ford City plant in Pa guess where his job is going, China.
    Now I'm not a big business just a small plumbing and HVAC shop that has always taken pride in are trade. The goods that come out of China are some of the cheapest out there which is great if you want to maximize profits but what about quality? From a monies point the bigger profit margin will probably make it seem like a good idea but it strikes me as the beginning of the end when a company starts out sourcing all of their production. They no longer manufacture closets they just are middle men.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Did i say wrong or did i say the truth?

    Thanks *~/:(

    my apologies for speaking ...
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    Mad Dog makes good points

    My boss and I were talking one day about fittings from China being junk. The boss said one of the supply houses took pride in only selling American until their fitting business dropped dramatically. So in this case the market (us) drove the decision.
    Does anyone remember the 50's & 60's when Made in Japan meant junk?

  • Tony_23
    Tony_23 Member Posts: 1,033
    Junk fittings

    You mean those 80* ells from Matco ? Or the 100* ones ?

    I can make Pex look better than iron with that crap. And our supplier says he can't afford to stock good ones cause nobody but me will buy them :(
  • Maine Doug_65
    Maine Doug_65 Member Posts: 24

    >>>>but I see their attitude towards us as being quite belligerent. A few years back, they forced down a surveilance plane of ours and spent 3 weeks picking it apart.<<<<
    Of course we do not have such an attitude. And what would do if a chinese spy plane cruised over your home?

    >>>It fuels their military.<<< And what fuels our military / industrial complex? Possibly the selling of US financial paper, much of it to China.
    And governments of all countries, all western included divert money to their military. Nothing new or unusal here.

    >>>And what happens when the mainland decides its time to reclaim Taiwan, whom we've pledged to assist?<<< Perhaps not to wise a move on the part of our foreign relations unless it becomes a good excuse for a burst in diverting more money to the industrial/military complex.

  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    A fundamental Difference.....

    I am in the process of buying living room furniture - and I have had a very interesting discussion with my chosen supplier that I believe illistrates the "made in ____" point well.

    I am having custom furniture built by an English Master Furniture Crafstman who now lives in Canada (he married a Canadian gal). I need fully and properely covered cushions to control dustmites (once the cushions get infested... I've tossed two livingroom furnature sets). Time to do it right as no modern factoy produced furniture allows can be easily modified to really control this issue.

    The craftsman here has been building furniture for about 40 years. When he moved to Canada he discovered something amazing about people who live in Canada and the U.S.

    They're cheap. In Europe most people tend to look for long term quality and want good construction; and don't flinch a bit at paying for furniture (and other things) that are really built to last a long long time. Many families pass their furniture to future generations.

    Here in North America... only a select few are interested in quality and good construction. Most are focused on throw away after a few years quality and durability in many things.

    The result, is that high quality well constructed items are in limited supply and often are the realm of individual craftsmen or small companies who cater to the few who are willing to pay for individual construction or limited production runs (and the associated higher cost of such low volumn production runs).

    You see it all over the place. From A to Z. Boilers, fittings, pipe, furniture, etc.

    I wonder how many of the currently constructed houses will last 100 years without needing major work well beyond what we do to current 100 year old houses (tear down to the studs, rewire, reinsulate, etc).

    I wonder about the durability of many things; and about the long term effects of the North American trend to cheaper wins regardless of quality and durability in many things.

    Yes modern designs have some merrit; and some of the old stuff is obsolete in certain cases. But I'd rather have old and obsolete and make a decission to replace instead of having to buy the same thing every several years because it wears out or fails.

    For those interested in custom made furniture - and think individual cushions on wood slats in my case the way it used to be made 100 years ago).


    Check out his other stuff as well.

  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    you know

    It might be because North Americans are always wanting to be in "fashion" and great grandmas couch doesn't "fit" the decor, and people change furniture here every few years.

    (I have my great grandmother furniture by the way, it is still the MOST confortable piece in the house.)

    I have had customers pull our new corian countertops because granite was in fashion...and corian "simply wouldn't do" (Mind you the 40 year old furnace was not even in the sights for a budget consideration, but rather " I hope we don't have to replace it.."


    tis what makes high quality work a hard sell somedays
  • midway_2
    midway_2 Member Posts: 42
    china trade

    do any of you listen to the Lou Dobbs TV show on CNN (6 PM) eastern time? quite a bit about China goods.
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