Radiant Panel radiators

Dave_4

Hate the look of baseboard. We (wife and I) want to put in some nice large wood trim and the idea of any kind of baseboard covering it up, or trying to match into it is not the look we are going for. Looked a radiant floor heat, but it is just to expensive and do not see any kind of potential payback benefit vs. cost. We both like the look of the old cast iron radiators, but they are incredibly expensive.

So we compromise and are going with radiant panels. The panels will be mostly located under windows, unless height prevents it, then will move to somewhere else on an exterior wall.

BTW the quick responses are truely appreciated.

Pete

Dave_4

radiant panel radiators and mod/con boilers

Due to cost and complexity, I have ruled out radiant floor for all but the basement. Tubing was installed at pour. heat will come in the future when budget permits.

I am now looking at radiant panel heaters such as Buderus or Myson. I plan on utilizing a modulating/condensing boiler. Which from what I understands operates most efficiently at lower supply temperatures.

The Buderus manual for sizing is excellent. It talks about the sizing factors (upsizing in my case) when not using a 180 degree supply temp.

Does anyone see any reason that I could or should not use such panel radiators with a low supply temp of say 130 to 140 degree?

Steve Ebels_3

Works great

Sizing rads to work at condensing temperatures is Standard Operating Procedure for us. If you pay attention to your system delta T and flow rate you can reliably get condensation at supply temps of 150*F.

You should call Paul Ross at Hydronic Alternatives and ask him about the 5 unit apartment building that uses 350 gallons of LP gas ANNUALLY. It's heated with a Vitodens running Radson Panel rads and uses a couple Viessmann solar panels for DHW.

You read that right. 350 gallons annually for heat and domestic hot water. The building is in Vermont BTW.

Ted_9

Panel rads

You'll be glad you did this. Most of the systems I install are like this.

Ken_40

The question is not whether or not...

you can use panels. The question is what is any emitter rated at, BTU/output-wise given the size you must buy to meet the design day BTU heating requirement. Could be panels, baseboard, radiators, or fin-tube emitters. Those funky looking aluminum baseboard rads are of interest as well.

How much area do you have to install whatever you decide on? What's your aesthetic tendency? What's your budget target? Since the output curve varies wildly for all the options in the emitter performance/output realm, designing for a design day is easy. Designing for the remaining 95% of the cooler days is difficult. Most emitters are not even close to being "linear" with regard to output vs. water temp ratings, especially in the "sweet band" of 100 to 130F that would be common to all fall and all spring weather/demand ranges.

My bias against panel rads as looking dorky notwithstanding, the emitter selection process is a tough one. Cost, aesthetics and output being frequently at odds with each other makes choices the basis upon which wars can be started );-o)

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Paul Pollets

You'll like 'em

We only install wall panel radiators with our systems, as both a radiant alternate and for our renovations. We commonly use the DiaNorm (www.heatlines.com) or the Buderus Solidiflux. Sizing for the "condensing load" usually requires a 35% panel size increase over the normal 180 deg design factors. Big deal...minor cost.

We find the #22 size panel rads are easier to install than the #11 series. The larger radator reduces the overall sizing requirement. The slightly wider panel doesn't affect difficulties with the piping rough-in, especially when installing through the floors and missing the base molding.

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Dave_4

thanks

Thanks to all for the info.

Keep it coming.

Pete

Steve Ebels_3

Here's the address

www.hydronicalternatives.com

Uni R_2

Understand your climate to optimize

Sizing based on design day conditions may be fine for simpler systems but for what you're doing I'd try and get as detailed seasonal information as you can. If you can get hourly data for the past several heating seasons I would go that far.

I'd take 2/3rds of your Manual J heatloss and start with the emmitter sizing that would require 180 at design. You'll have to redo calculations for what your home's heatloss would be at various higher outdoor temperatures (it's more or less linear).

For every outdoor temperature, determine your supply temp and then take your design ΔT or maybe half of it to be conservative and then plot those as your return temps.

Do this again based on 170, 160, 150, 140, 130 to maybe 120.

Now plot these return curves and compare them to the boiler's efficiency/return temp curve.

The cost of reducing return temps by increasing the size of panels is exponential while the gains in efficiency are increasingly marginal. By plotting the returns you should be able to get an idea of how much savings you are getting with each reduction in target water supply. Increased fixed costs verses long term savings and better recovery (if you are frequently out of town and have the house set temp back).

Key thing is, what is you "typical" heating day like?

Ted_9

Ted_9

panel rad

I have on file from someone on this site, a DiaNorm excel that you can use to size panel rads. But, I can't post it here. There was some kind of error.

Dave_4

Ok

I understand the point you are making as to being able to determine what is best from cost and efficiency. It does sound involved. Will have to get cranking with the spreadsheet.

Pete

Dave_4

I went there and got it

thanks

Dave_4

use

Can DiaNorm's spreadsheet be applied to other brands (Myson or Buderus) panel? Seems like the types (11, 22) are the same size.

Is output the same between brands?

Wonder if the panels are all made by the same manufacturer over in Europe and sold under separate brand names

Pete

Dennis Bellanti_2

Do It!

I have an older house that I changed from forced air to mostly panel radiators and radiant in the bath and kitchen (those were the only floors accessable.) I sized the panel radiators to work at low temperatures and use a Buderus condensing boiler. It's a fantastic system for an old house!

Dianorm www.heatlines.com offers a sizing spreadsheet where you can enter a supply temp and delta T and it will show proper output with your data.

Ted_9

Well.

From I understand, they are basically the same.

Dave_4

Low temp

If you remember, what temp for sizing did you go with?

Pete