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roth panel

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hr
hr Member Posts: 6,106
panel best of all the various products I have tried. Although I haven't run it yey ;)

I don't know why walls wouldn't work.

I'd like to try it on my roof! On top of the plywood with metal roofing installed right on top of the Roth. A huge un-obtrusive solar collector.

I actually took the idea from Eatherton, he wants to use Warmboard in a roof application. I like the cost and r-value of the Roth, however. I can't imagine hauling WB up on a sloped roof.

hot rod

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  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    Roth panel

    I'm looking at Roth panel for a job that has floors which are elevated(exposed to exterior). The builder plans to insulate thoroughly including a continuous layer to block thermal bridging though joists, however there are some recessed lights and I have concerns about the overall heat loss. I like the Roth panel because of the additional insulation and the level of direct contact that the pipe has with the aluminum which is as close to the floor surface as possible.

    Here is my concern. I don't want to use sleepers because they will decrease the heated surface area and complicate installation. Is there a positive method for anchoring 5/8'' T+G flooring through the 3/4'' roth panel and into the sub-flooring?

    In my experience with typical flooring nailers the longest nails available do not penetrate much further than 1/2'' into the sub-flooring. I did some tests with this on quick-track, My thinking was that if the flooring nails penetrated through the quick track and into the sub floor it would reduce to some extent the amount of nailing required on the quick track. Anyway the longest nails that the gun I was using could hold did next to nothing as far as stitching all these layers together.

    I believe there is a heavy duty flooring stapler tool that might take long enough staples. Does anyone have experience with this or opinions on the integrity of such an instal?
  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    2\" staple did exist

    While I have not been involved with an installation that has done that, if you went to the Roth radiant school, they show you a 2" staple and tell you to use that when nailing 3/4 wood through the panel into the sub floor.

    I've mentioned this to a couple of contractors but no has seen or been able to obtain such a staple. Perhaps if you call Roth tech support, they can tell you the manufacturer of the staple. Then you can call them and ask for the nearest distributor of their products.

    I have been involved with Roth panel jobs where sleepers are used.I have posted them here before - if you want, contact me via email and I'll send you a few pics using sleepers.


    As far as the reduced alum surface area, I think the lost heat energy would be minimal and easily compensated for by increased flow rate and raising the supply temp a degree or so.

    If you still feel uncomfortable about that, you could lay some thin alum flashing so that it would straddle both panels thereby conducting some heat across the sleeper surface. I don't thank the thickness of the flashing would have any noticeable affect on the flooring.

    Good luck
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Cleats are better for hardwood

    instead of staples. A cleat is a serated, tapered, flat fastener with a T shaped head. Designed for hardwood flooring installation. They do come in 2" as shown here. If installed at a 45 angle they will work fine and reach thru all the layers.

    This pic shows a 2" at 35 angle.

    Cleats allow some movement in the hardwood, unlike staples. Staples are more often used due to cost, however.

    A 2" cleat at a 35 angle will not go thru a 3/4" subfloor when radiant plates are installed.

    I am in the middle of a 4200 sq ft Roth panel job. They are drilling, screwing and plugging the hardwood! Talk about a lot of work. The flooring is not T&G, all random width Oak, Walnut,Hickory, and Cherry. Nice floors.

    hot rod

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  • Glenn Sossin_2
    Glenn Sossin_2 Member Posts: 592
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    hand nailed

    HR
    These cleats you showed are hand nailed? or are can they be used in some sort of fastening gun.? You always have the latest and greatest tools/gadgets/gizmos.

    I'm still waiting for the infra red cameras to get reasonable. I am getting the See Snake per one of your earlier posts. I have a leak in my shower. I suspect they didn't glue a joint. I should be able to feed that line up through a light fixture to get a view of the trap.
  • lee_7
    lee_7 Member Posts: 458
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    Those cleats are fired by a hardwood flooring gun. I personnaly have the Bostich stapler that I belive can shoot 2" staples. Flooring gun can be expensive, but can be rented at local rental store to try and see if you like results
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    2'' cleat

    I'm familiar with the flooring cleat. There are actually two styles That I'm aware of, T head and L head. If as you state a 2" cleat will not penetrate 3/4" sub-flooring than how will it make it through 3/4" roth panel and into the sub flooring. The photo even appears to indicate that that the penetration is not enough. Seems to me like a longer fastener than 2" may be required. Thats why I brought up the stapler question, as far as I know 2" is the longest flooring cleat available. When I contacted roth they said that this was doable, but were unable to specify the specific fastener used.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    The angle that you drive the cleat

    makes the difference in how far it reaches. If you have radiant installed under the subfloor and don't want the cleat the break through either a 1-1/2" cleat at the typical 45 angle will be safe. Or a 2" cleat at a shallower angle, like 35 degrees.

    A 2" cleat at at 45 angle will reach 1-1/2" below the bottom of the hardwood. So it reaches through the 5/8 or 3/4" Roth depending on which panels you are using 3/8 or 1/2" tube version. And then at least 3/4" into the subfloor.

    Merely strap a spacer on the back end of the nailer to adjust the angle of the shot.

    Most guys I see use a pneumatic assisted cleat nailer, but it still gets driven with a rubber mallet to pull the wood tightly.

    Check with a tool guy or hardwood supplier for nailer options. I've also seen them at rental shops.

    hot rod

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  • Theealchemist
    Theealchemist Member Posts: 59
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    Roth Panel for wall Applications?

    > While I have not been involved with an

    > installation that has done that, if you went to

    > the Roth radiant school, they show you a 2"

    > staple and tell you to use that when nailing 3/4

    > wood through the panel into the sub

    > floor.

    >

    > I've mentioned this to a couple of

    > contractors but no has seen or been able to

    > obtain such a staple. Perhaps if you call Roth

    > tech support, they can tell you the manufacturer

    > of the staple. Then you can call them and ask for

    > the nearest distributor of their products.

    >

    > I

    > have been involved with Roth panel jobs where

    > sleepers are used.I have posted them here before

    > - if you want, contact me via email and I'll send

    > you a few pics using sleepers.

    >

    > As far as the

    > reduced alum surface area, I think the lost heat

    > energy would be minimal and easily compensated

    > for by increased flow rate and raising the supply

    > temp a degree or so.

    >

    > If you still feel

    > uncomfortable about that, you could lay some thin

    > alum flashing so that it would straddle both

    > panels thereby conducting some heat across the

    > sleeper surface. I don't thank the thickness of

    > the flashing would have any noticeable affect on

    > the flooring.

    >

    > Good luck



    What is your opinion using roth panels for a wainscotting application?
  • Theealchemist
    Theealchemist Member Posts: 59
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    Roth Panel for wall Applications?

    What is your opinion using Roth Panels for a wainscoting application? We are limited to only Radiant Wall Heating.
    I'm leaning towards the Roth Product because of it's insulation.....
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
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    Adjusting the angle

    Thanks for the input. I do see how changing the angle effects the depth, however I see a problem with shimming the foot of the nailer though. The gun has a ledge that rest against the edge of the board and places the nail in the spot just above the tung. Sometimes the depth of that ledge needs to be adjusted for non-standard flooring. While it would be easy to shim the back side of the foot, the front were the ledge is would not be easily shim-able as this would effect the entry point of the nail.

    Have you specifically seen this sort of modification made, and t+g hardwood successfully nailed THRUOGH roth panel?
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    I watched the installer

    duct tape a 3/4 block on the back end (heel) of a nailer to change the angle. His idea, not mine. We were attempting to get a 2" nail at the lower angle to prevent it hitting my tubes.

    I'm not sure of the typical drive angle, I thought it was 45 degree, which works well for your Roth application. But ask around or "google" some nailer manufactures.

    I suppose it depends on the construction of the nailer you have, but the concept is pretty straight forward, change the drive angle.

    Mickey Moore from the NOWFA (oak flooring association director) gave me and Foley a good low down on cleats vs staples years ago. He had no use for staple down T&G hardwood. And also info about angle changes.

    He also hated to see hardwood nailed over particle or MDB board like some retro fit products. He claims the cleats or stapled don't hold well in that product, and it some times explodes a chip undewr the flooring. Try driving a nail at an angle into medium density board to better understand this.

    They do hands on installer training down in Memphis several times a year. It's been on my list of to-do for years now. A good hands on hardwood installation and finishing class should be a must for hardwood installers.

    hot rod

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  • Theealchemist
    Theealchemist Member Posts: 59
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    Re:So far I like the Roth

    I thought of using Warmboard on these walls but I really like the fact that there's some r-value behind the Roth Panel. The Builder isn't too keen on me adding to much thickness to the existing walls and I really want some insulation behind the radiant panels. Any Idea what the r-value is? I like your idea of the solar roof Hot Rod!
This discussion has been closed.