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Munchkin Boiler F05 problems

Ted_9
Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
The circ can function just fine that way.

It may be a bad thermister. Call HTP in the morning.

Also, I can't tell but It looks like it's piped Primary/secondary.

I also noticed that the circ is set top Med speed. What size boiler is this? I believe only the T50, T80 and the 80M can use the UPS15-58 circ. The larger boilers need bigger circs.

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Comments

  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    Munchkin Boiler F05 problems

    Hi,

    We had a new munchkin boiler installed in April. Since then we have had it shut down about 5 times. Each time there was an error code of F05. F05 means the following:

    "F05 Supply (Outlet)
    Temperature exceeds 230°F.
    Check circulation pump operation.
    Assure that there is adequate flow through the boiler by accessing the
    statusmenu and assuring that there is less than a 50°F rise from the return thermister to the supply thermister. "



    Today Keyspan sent their best Munchkin tech to our house to diagnose the problem. He claims that they installers installed the pump that feeds the water heater incorrectly. The tech showed my wife the schematic and showed her it should be horizontal. My wife wasn't sure what she was looking at :). He also told her when the pump is vertical it creates air bubbles in the system which isn't any good. He said they have proved when it is horizontal everything is fine.

    Do I trust this guy or is he full of baloney?
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    piping

    Is it piped primary secondary? What size is the indirect piping? What size circ?

    Take some digital photos and post them here.

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  • Paul Rohrs_4
    Paul Rohrs_4 Member Posts: 466
    Accuracy

    If I am understanding your description correctly, the tech is accurate. Check out the attached PDF.

    Regards,

    PR
  • sounds like

    a wiring issue. If it's piped P/S, you'll see F05 codes whenever the heating circuits shut down because the primary circ won't run. An isolating relay can be utilized to bring on the primary pump when ever there's a domestic call or re-pipe the indirect circ/lines as shown for use with the Vision control.

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    need more info

    does the boiler also provide DHW via an indirect tank?

    How is it piped?

    Are the pumps the correct size and pumping into the return side.

    Pictures are worth a thousand words :)

    hot rod

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  • R. Swatton
    R. Swatton Member Posts: 86
    position of the pump

    I take it that the boiler is piped correctly!!!


    I have run into this same problem.

    If the pump motor is installed in the vertical position it will fail.


    The installer should change the position of the pump motor to horizontal.
    This should fix the problem if the pump isn't already damaged.

    Rich Swatton


    Authorized Heat Transfer Products Service Agent
  • Intermittent Taco Failures

    We have experienced numerous situations whereby the pump will fail to start, causing excessive discharge temperatures. THe technician was partially correct. In order to insure proper water to the bearings with the shaft mounted vertically, the system must be operated at a relatively higher (20 + PSI?) pressure. They work best horizontally, but you still may have to replace the pump due to inadvertent/random lock up.

    ME
  • D'OH!

    Like HR said - a pic = 1,000 words! Then again, if I could read, I'd have caught that glaring issue. Vert = boo-boo. If only installers would read the instructions or look at the pictures in the instructions with the slashed/circle indicating vert is a sure-fired dirt-nap.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    Munchkin F05 problems

    I wanted to thank you all for your help so far. As I don't know the jargon very well, I will attach some pictures. The pump is a Grundfos. It says the type is a UPS 15 58 FRC( I think it is FRC but it might be PRC). It is a class F. I am attaching some pictures of the pump and the piping from the pump to the Indirect SuperStore water heater.

    Also, do you think the pump may be damaged due to be run in the vertical position. I have the guys coming out on Friday, to change it to the horizontal position. Let me know if you have any other questions.

    Thanks
  • All those pumps

    are mounted correctly, i.e. pump shafts are horizontal.

    Something else is wrong that is preventing proper flow through the Munchkin's heat exchanger.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    Who is HTP? Also, it is a 140M.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Heat Transfer Products

    140M, I think you need a Taco 0010 for the boiler circ or a Grunfos UP26-64.

    The primary piping must also be 1 1/4"

    Call them in them am.

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  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    I guess this Keyspan guy is not really an expert if he is saying the pumps need to be changed to the horizontal position. You guys are saying it is already in the correct position.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    One tech told me to set it to Medium speed because he said that at a very high speed air bubbles will be produced and would put air in the system.
  • jalcoplumb_7
    jalcoplumb_7 Member Posts: 62
    Need bigger pumps.

    The system pump needs to be a Grundfos 26-64F or Taco 0010. The domestic hot water pump needs to be a Grundfos 26-96F or a Taco 0011 as per page 15 of the Munchkin install guide.

    The pumps that are in there now are to small even on high speed. Note: Air bubbles will not be put into your system if you run your pumps on high speed. Kindly slip the tec servicing your system the web address to the wall, it might help him in the future.

    Yes your pumps are mounted properly. The pump position is not your problem; it is the size of your pumps that is causing your error code.

    HTP is the Munchkin manufacturer. Heat Transfer Products, you can check out the web site at www.htproducts.com you will find the phone number to contact them and you can download the install guide if it was not left for you.

    The HTP support number is 800-323-9651 (select Option 2 from the menu.

    Good luck.

    PS "Do I trust this guy or is he full of baloney?"
    Get the bread go for the baloney sandwich.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,094
    FO5

    Besides the pump being improperly mounted if you go through the program in the controller (vision one )you will see a post run time for the indirect tank and central heating pump if you set it for at least 3 minutes this will help pervent the unit from coding out on a FO5 by removing excess heat from the unit after the call for heat or the indirect by runninmg the pumps ,i programn a post run time into every munchkin i install and i have yet to have one code out on a fo5 i believe on a munchkin 80 a oo7 and a oo10 is proper and for a 140 it's a 0010 and a 0011 (heating /indirect) .Since programing post circ run times on my installs i have not had one FO5 code hope this helps peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    So it Seems ...

    I am getting the impression most of you guys feel this is a pump sizing issue rather than a programming. I would assume all my pumps would have to be replaced not just the domestic water heater one. So the primary, water heater, and 3 zones pumps would have to be replaced to the bigger size.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    JAY

    Where are you located ??

    We are in Mass on the North Shore.

    It looks like this boiler was not installed as per manufactures spec's. The pumps are fine in location but as others have said not sized properly and with this boiler that is Key !!

    I also question some of the piping I see in the background but it may be the picture.

    Scott Milne

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  • jalcoplumb_7
    jalcoplumb_7 Member Posts: 62
    Just the two pumps.

    The primary pump and the domestic hot water pump. As for the 3 zone pumps they should be good.


  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    looks like a fairly nice install

    can you get the original installer back to switch out the circs? The larger Grundfos circs will fit into the same dimension, It should be an easy switch. Also be sure they are wired to the correct leads in the munchkin.

    A local dealer or rep should bre able to answer all the wiring questions.

    hot rod

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  • I stand corrected....

    It's not a Taco. Its a Grundfos, which we've also had intermittent problems with on occasion...

    ME

  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
    In addition to the main circ issue

    I'd be very curious to see what the actual heat loss calculation for your house is. I'm assuming that one was done simply because that particular step should be standard practice. An M-140 will typically provide heat for a normally insulated house of 4,500 -5,000 sq ft conservatively. How big is your house?

    As to the circ issue, a Munchkin 140 requires a minimum flow rate such as provided by a Grundfos 26-64, Taco 0010, or a B&G NRF33. The 15-58 is simply not designed to move that much fluid and you're "perking" your fluid as it goes through the boiler. Not a good thing if you're expecting normal service life from your boiler. Be that as it may, your fix simply requires installation of the correct circulator.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,094
    140m

    Sorry about the programing info ,but as others have stated and i did not realize that you had a 140 those pumps are to small and need to be replaced this is where the promblem lies but even with the right pumps remenber to program the post circ times in the programer as for replacing your zone pumps i think your fine there it just the boiler pump and indirect pump a taco oo10 should be fine for the boiler pump and a taco0011 for the indirect i do know that grunfos does have 3 speed pumps that have a simalar curve to the 0010 and 0011 but check with HTP or pump manafuctures to find the right fit ,but again as others had stated it's a pump issue and there right ,when piping and manafucture pump sizes are followed there are not many other promblems i know i have about 6 or 7 munchkins that i have installed and no promblems as of yet only happy custermers peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 996
    pumps

    It is certain that the pumps are too small. But, they are also not properly installed! Normaly, one needs 5 dia. of straight pipe before and at least two after a pump. The photos do not show this. Failure to do so, will result in much turbelance and improper pump operation.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,490
    I know that's true for end-suction pumps

    but I don't think it's required for inlines.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Circs

    I won't comment on the Supply circs but the primary and the indirect circs should be fine, as long as they get sized right (Taco 0010 and 0011, Grundfos UPS26-99 3 speed or equivalent brands).
  • Taco multi-speed

    Do any of the new Taco multi-speed pumps meet the head required?

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  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 703


    HTP, recommends using the 0010. Taco offers the 3 speed version of the 0010. See attached catalog, and submittal data information for all three curves. Incidentally, if you do the load calculation, you should be able to select the pump specific to the design requirement without having to use a three speed pump.

    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    Table 3.4 – Recommended Circulators

    Rev.1 and Rev. 2:

    Table 3.4 – Recommended Circulators

    Boiler Model TACO Circulator Grundfos Circulator

    PI-T50 006 UPS 15-58FC SPD-1

    PI-T80 007 UPS 15-58FC SPD-2

    PI-80 007 UPS 15-58FC SPD-2

    PI-140 0010 UPS 15-58FC SPD-3

    PI-199 0011 UP 26-64F
This discussion has been closed.