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Here's one for Glitch & Fix...........(hb)

Dont forget to remount circ
Never ever ever mount with motor end up on wet-rotor (if you want it to be quiet and last)

Comments

  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    It doesn't matter...............

    ......what boiler would have been chosen for this project. That's why silly threads about which boiler is better is a complete waste of bandwidth. This is a high quality boiler with outdoor reset, an indirect, baseboard and radiant throught the first floor. The house is only 1,500 square feet and the gas consumption averages $400 a month in the winter and $100 a month in the summer. This mechanical scheme is screwed. The symptoms range from scalding hot water to running out of hot water after 1.5 showers, a basement that is 80° in the summer and a radiant "system" that can't get the areas above 62° when it's cold.

    Boiler selection has very little to do with "efficiency". A Vitodens would use as much fuel as this does attached to this heating system.

    hb

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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    And its nicely

    labeled so you can See whats wrong.

    What a shame, someone paid good money for that.

    Scott



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  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    yea

    I can't look at it. It hurts my eyes!

    This actually look similar to a messed up job I looked at in Newton, Ma. Unfortunately, that guy didn't hire me to fix the mess.
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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Do you think......

    ........he hired another low bidder to try and correct it or he is just going to live with it's inadequacies?



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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    You're not talking about me are you, Ted?
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Hey

    It took me a minute to figure it out, but yes, it was your job. Did you get it straightened out yet?

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  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Hi Ted, well we just had a baby and we have not made any changes to our system since you looked at it. To be honest, I didn't think that our system was so bad as to qualify as a "mess"! Sure, the piping is not up to the standards of the works of art seen on The Wall, but the system does not have any major installation flaws. Our problems are more of a design nature from the outset, i.e., oversized boiler not matched to heat loss, aggressive oil consumption and couple of colder rooms with undersized emitters.

    On the advice of The Wall, I have an appointment with Ray Landry to take a look at these issues. Ray is doing Buderus training in Germany this week, and then he is booked up on a contractor job until October!

    Ted you have been a kind supporter and I just want you to know that we were impressed with your expertise, but we were looking for a one-stop-shop that could do our annual maintenance as well.
  • Tekkie
    Tekkie Member Posts: 58
    I am just a Home Moaner

    Could someone please tell what is wrong? My uneducated guess is that the pump is really just looping to itself. Haven't figured out why it goes from hot to cold but if I stare at it and maybe rub my crystal ball I could probably give more guess'.
  • Dave Larsen_6
    Dave Larsen_6 Member Posts: 3
    need more info

    Everyone can agree that the piping looks pretty sloppy, but no one can really tell what the problem is with these pictures. You can't tell what is really going where. The other important questions are: what does the rest of the house look like? How's the insulation? New construction? new windows? It's very easy to blame the heating plant for high bills but we all know there is always more to a problem like this than meets the eye. By the way, I don't think anyone here will bash a Buderus boiler, will they?
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Issues

    The major issues with this system are:

    (1) A heat loss was either never done or it was completely ignored. When I performed the calculations, there is no way radiant will work without supplemental heating. This is plateless joist bay heating and even with extruded plates, it's far out of the realm of radiant, solely.

    (2) The piping is laid out in a primary - secondary scheme which is unnecessary with this boiler. The primary pump is wired 24/7 and cooks the basement.

    (3) The original contractor piped the water heater into the primary loop, which is why the primary pump runs constantly since the DHW pump is powered from the boiler's control. The tank's HX is above the primary loop and the tank overheats even with a check valve. The HX is supplied from the primary loop through the return side so hot water continually migrates through the coil. Output of the tank is diminshed because of this so the owners run out of DHW.

    (4) The pump is way oversized (26-99) and there is no acuator on the three way valve. The water gets to 190° and the radiant still won't heat the rooms.

    Tomorrow, all the mechanicals come off the wall and I start over.

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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
    Even though...

    ...the situation is terrible for the owners, systems like these are fun to work on because you can take what is completely screwed up and make it work like it always should have.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Daniel

    Thanks for the kind words.

    Just to let you know, there are piping and pumping issues with your set up. Not to mention that one of the boiler plugs was removed for a supply out to your indirect. I guess it's not recommended to use that plugged port.

    Anyway, I don't want to hi-jack this thread any longer.



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  • If the heat loss will never work without supplemental heating, even with heavy plates, then a good chunk of that fuel bill is in a "defective envelope", not just a poor system. You're talking 30+ BTUs/sq ft there?

    out of curiousity, what was the 3 way valve set to for a supply water temp at the manifold, do you know? what did they think naked pipe would do here, I wonder :D
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    I Know....

    you'll make chicken soup out of chicken poop, HB.

    Paul

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    double post

    oops!
  • jim s_2
    jim s_2 Member Posts: 113
    Where?

    I don`t see a pump mounted with the motor end up.

    Believe me Heatboy knows how to install a circulator.
  • Dan_15
    Dan_15 Member Posts: 388


    Well you are right that it was piped to pump on the return side, but its still pumping away from the expansion tank, and I have never experienced any airbound issues to date. I think the indirect is piped off the iron supply header, and its a pressure 30psi pressure valve that is using the supplemental boiler tapping. Anyway, you are right that it could be piped better but its working for what it is.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Well

    EDIT EDIT EDIT:

    Daniel, if your last name begins with an "S", then I have made a mistake. It wasn't your job I was talking about.

    It was Daniel G with the messed up system.

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  • Ben_10
    Ben_10 Member Posts: 6
    In front of your face

    Picture #156 right in plain view
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    That's my bad.......

    .....sorry. I should have rotated the pic before I put it up here! The picture shows the indirect being supplied backwards through the return port and piped above the primary loop, which is hot 24/7. The leaks you see are the least of this "systems" issues.

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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Yes, Rob.

    There are couple of rooms in excess of that. The homeowner was upfront with the original HVAC guy about this. Before I became involved, both the Wirsbo and Buderus reps were there and neither picked up on the fact that radiant wouldn't work in this home, let alone all of the mechanical issues present.

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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."


  • it's unfortunate how common that is. But then, most reps are salesmen, not techies.

    Best of luck HB, the homeowner may not like what you have to say on this one but he or she will certainly like what they end up with.
  • jim s_2
    jim s_2 Member Posts: 113
    Maybe

    ben needs to pay more attention to what he`s looking at.
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    The owner has decided..........

    ....... to remove the radiant from four of the six rooms because he didn't want to complicate things with staged thermostats and secondary emitters. The radiant will remain in the bath and kitchen with the addition of extruded plates in the bays. There has been no decision yet on what type of emitters will be used in place of the radiant (i.e., cast iron, runtal or fin tube).

    I do have quite the little pile of stuff there after re-piping the DHW tank that I'll try to use as we go.



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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Need a little Buderus knowledge.

    Can someone help with part numbers for the following items? I am assuming the FM241 module is it's own part number.

    The ESBE actuator. Also, the existing Tekmar 3-way looks like an ESBE. Am I correct?

    The mixed supply sensor.

    The indoor sensor for the mixed system.

    Thanks.



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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
This discussion has been closed.