laundry hot water

Christian Egli_2

This is exciting, with the new steam boiler, there will be so much more opportunities for neat equipment such as the super powerful and fire proof steam heated clothes dryer... leave the electric and the natural gas appliances behind in a cloud of lint.

Just to think also of the ironing machines and the steam cabinets. Oooh all the fun chores.

Check also with your boiler manufacturer if they have an economizer to attach to your flue for perhaps excessive fuel savings. And also keep opportunities open for flexible fuel switch, oil, gas, whatever is cheapest for the day.

For temperature control valves and other steam stuff, Sterlco of Milwaukee makes the easy to trace failed shut thermostatic radiator traps. They also make thermostatic valves with bulbs for your application. Perhaps worth looking into. And just to kick around some more ideas, I'm not sure of the purpose or the benefit of the 15 PSI pressure reducing valve.

http://www.sterlco.com/index.cfm/datakey/3/category/Steam%20Control%20Products.html

Glen

more hot water needed -

both in volume and temperature in a local laundry. The new system would feed 3 - 4 com washers that demand volume and temp. Heating source will be a 15 HP Fulton. The choice is to use steam (100 psi) or circ the hot water from the same boiler through the indirect. The steam would be a faster recovery, but I am wondering about the pros or cons of either strategy.

Brad White

Local Code

My initial concern about the 15 HP Fulton is, if HPS (over 9 BHP and 15 PSIG which it would be) you need a 24/7 boiler operations engineer (fireman) at least here in Massachusetts.

What do the Canadian codes say? Curious.

Rich Kontny_4

Might consider...

I hooked up a commercial washer (alongside two others) at a Sheraton Hotel and they heat the water with four Takagi on demand water heaters. They are piped I believe with a reverse return type arrangement.

The mantenance man claims they never run out of hot water.This may be a more cost effective method!

Glen

local code -

is annual inspection by inspection agency, annual testing of equipment including safeties, flame safe guards, combustion testing & maintenance logs by qualified personnel. Other than that the proprietor is able to start stop, blow down, add boiler feed chemicals, repair steam traps, replace hand hold gaskets etc. But at 15 BHP - that's about the limit - after that a 5th class engineers TQ (fireman) is required. Of course they all tinker once your back is turned, some more so than others. Our boiler inspector does not have one foot in the grave - and is very proactive re boiler safety and annual testing. (he is not a Hector)

Glen

great idea -

but this is in a mall with an agreement not to perforate the building envelope more than existing.

Rich Kontny_4

Another..

Another idea would be the "Aerco" KC-1000 water heater it is a great water heater although it is spendy.

Christian Egli_2

Steam cleaners are all about steam

When building boilers, we choose the exchange surface metal, the heat transfer area and the operating temperatures. Once that is all set, we still need to fill the machine with a heating fluid. Water is always handy and hard to beat for intuitive simplicity, but at about 338 F, it will require all the pressure steam commands, 100 PSI. No difference.

Now, you know how we whine about using antifreeze mixtures precisely because they can handle less of a heat load per pound than ordinary tap water does? Oh, the difference is smallish, and we're really into whining, but it does bite away at the efficient heat transfer we expect from our set boiler. Choose to replace the heating fluid with air, and watch in horror at what happens with a further bit less of heat carrying capability. We are whiners.

What if I told you all of a fantastic heating fluid that handles on the order of a thousand times more heat per pound? Sounds delightful, doesn't it? Any short comings in heat exchanger metal and limited surface area are patched over by this incredible super heating medium.

I am talking steam, of course.

It's perhaps not as easy to design up front, because we are talking about having three items flow altogether in one single pipe, that's air, steam, and water - you have to wrap your brain around it, dealing with plain water is easier to conceptualize. Like everything else in life, the pay back depends in large part on the effort we put into things.

Once you have a glitch free design, getting steam heat is as good as pushing the easy button.

Pipe wise and pump wise, at 340 F, whether you amuse yourself with pressurized scalding water or plainly pressurized steam, both will call for special attention - the huge advantage with going for steam is that you'll have half the pipes (no pressurized returns) and they won't be as huge as with water. Pipe insulation losses alone are pleasantly smaller.

A significant difference when everything is expensive: buying and maintaining beefier pumps and fatter valves becomes a quick bore once you're stuck with the big water carrying pipes. How about the big expansion tank?

So far, so good.

There is yet another tremendous subtlety to how steam operates. Ooh, I'm knocking myself over.

Steam is smart: it delivers heat by condensing itself into water. If it can't dump the heat, it won't budge. Once it has dumped the heat it can't take it away again from the indirect tank... Hot water is not like that at all. If it can't figure out where to dump the heat it will merrily bring it back to the boiler and carelessly spill it up the flue during the off fire times. No check valve or thermal trap is ever foolproof, you can't wish gravity away.

Can you guess where my love is?

I'll have to finish by saying a good word for hot water. Ultimately, if all you need is plain lots of hot water to fill the washing machines, water at what? 180F, I see simple beauty in having a plainly large hot water heater (instantaneous plus storage scheme) do the trick. Just enough of everything to match your power needs, all set at 180F.

Perhaps also, your current washing machines are pre-equipped for taking on supplement steam heat? That would push you over for sure.

Code wise, where is the benefit? - I don't know. We have the Ohio Specials, just for us, and manufacturers design their equipment around the codes, there are also the tankless steam boilers that make vessel law a non-issue. Plain hot water tanks get all the scrutiny a commercial laundry operation warrants, steam or no steam. It's all the same thing. You don't want to skimp on safety either.

Glen

So you like steam too!!

And I never thought to look for the steam injection ports - I'm leaving the office shortly - and that will be my first stop. That will make my first question a moot point - thanks

Glen

so after careful reconsideration -

it will be a steam heated indirect: vito H300, pressure reduced to 15 psi inlet and the appropriate traps and temp controls.

JackFre

What temp and poundage

do you require. With that,I can help you size a Rinnai system. While it is a condo with the restrictions, they can apply for a variance. The vents are only 5" od. I've done a lot of laundromats and commecial machines also. Incoming temp, working temp, poundage of machines, any special considerations.

Rich Kontny_4

Christian

One of the finest replies I have ever seen posted here.(Extremely well written)

Thank you!

Glen

options

initially I did consider rinnai or takagi - but we are unable to make any new perforations of the side walls or the roof (lease agreement) so if these fine folks need DHW capacity with legs then steam it is (or electricity). And I was considering the Danfoss IVT & IVR steam rated temp control valves but am told they have been discontinued. So we are still on the drawing board.

Glen

"I'm not sure of the purpose or the benefit of the 15 PSI pressure reducing valve?" Well - right now the indirect they are considering is rated for 15 psi service only. Thanks for the link - I will track them down.