GB install (Ray L)

Joe@buderus_2

Sorry Ted, but Buderus does not recommend using your own header and circulator. Not using the factory supplied header requires pre-approval for the warranty to still be in effect. Thanks

Ray Landry_3

Here's a job I did last week... Took out a ten section burnham firing 280,000 BTU's into a home that only needed 140,000. Installed a GB 142/45, removed the entire second floors baseboard loop and installed buderus panel rads througout the home to allow for room by room zoning via tstatic heads. Connected to existing 4 zones of baseboard, one loop of radiant, and a new turbomax 23 gallon indirect. Had to glycol the system due to existing pipes in freezing locations, so I used a flat plate HX to isolate the antifreeze from damaging the boilers HX

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Unknown

nice

is that 3/8" pex going to the panel rads? what pipe manufacturer?

hr

Nice work and upgrade

the owner will be pleased with the results.

I've used the Nobel No-Burst AL, aluminum glycol, in a few aluminum Ultras now. All looks good after 3 years of service. A bit less hassle then a HX.

hot rod

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scott markle_2

drain on vent pipe?

Nice work. Not to nit pick but I don't see the prescribed condensate drain on the vent pipe. I have noticed more condensate from vent pipes in my gb installations than from the hx. Be warned glycol may create some green stains around your propress fittings, keep those glycol concentrations in the 30% - 50% range and not above.The 3/8'' pexel is great to work with. Years back my supplier told me 3/8' wouldn't work in home run to panel rad. application, I did the math and of course it was fine.

Ted_9

3/8ths

I don't know if it is but you can definitly do it. I'd like to do one.

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Steve M_2

Wondering....

Not trying to bust your chops or anything but the pictures don't show the pre made primary manifold with the DHW ports that comes with the GB 142. I may be missing it in the pic. I saw one job where they mounted it off to the side because they didn't have the room to hang it on the boiler supply and return with the supplied unions. It looks like you're coming out of the boiler and into that flatplate HX and I don't think you can get the correct flow rate required doing that. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Steve

Ted_9

Flow rate

EDIT: Ask Buderus about that.

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Ray Landry_3

I did use the pre made header on this job and added another pump for the HX, although you certainly can get away with a bigger pump and cutting away the close spaced tees on the buderus pre header, with buderus's consent of course. Also, there is a condensate drain on the exhaust it comes down by the gas pipe. the 3/8 tube is a breeze to work with you just can't series loop the rads and have to size your pump accoringly. THanks for the comments

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scott markle_2

pre built header

I did a gb install in a small house recently. A long series loop with high delta t. The flow rates on the heating loop are fairly low. Problem is that the boiler loop flow is higher than the the heating loop even with boiler circ. on low. The result is that boiler supply water is traveling "backwards" through the tees and "diluting" My nice cool return water. I can "see" this by measuring temps at different pipe locations.

Support at Budarus was not very helpful on this, In fact the guy I spoke with had a very hard time accepting that my observation was legitimate.He just couldn't get the idea of a "backwards" flow in the tees. Seems pretty obvious that if primary exceeds secondary mixing will occur. Is this not this is the basis of P/S to protect cast iron boilers from low return temps? He told me I needed to read pumping away. I said I was pretty familiar with P/S pumping and perhaps he was the one who needed to brush up on his pumping concepts.

I guess this boiler needs some fairly high flow rates. Something to consider if you have a low heatloss and want to design for high delta t to get the most of condensing benefit.

Unless you have some suggestions I will be looking to a mod-con which permits direct piping and is more tolerant of lower flow rates for future jobs of this nature.

On larger multi-zone jobs when only one zone was open I imagine this non-beneficial mixing would also take place. Basically this p/s arrangement forces us to over pump on the secondary side to ensure that flow rates exceed primary flows.

P

Ted_9

So your saying..

That the boiler circ is pulling water backward through your system circ??? This is assuming the circ is on the system supply. If this is the case, then I don't agree with your analysis.

Explain so we can discuss and learn from each other.



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scott markle_2

circulator placment

Here is simplified pdf sketch of the arrangement that I'm speaking about.The doted line represents the mixing flow that is raising my return temp. The temperatures shown are illustrative, actual difference in temp. is probably a bit more pronounced.

Thanks for your interest, let me know your thoughts on this.

Ted_9

Learning

I didn't know that Joe.

Thanks for the info.

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Ted_9

ok

OK then, yes you will raise the temp a bit. A nice way to show this is using GPM. Unfortunately, I can't draw and scan anything to show what I'm talking about.

But you are getting flow to your heat emitter. I thought you were saying that you couldn't get water to flow to your emitters.

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Joe@buderus_2

GB142 Flow

Scott, you are indeed correct about flow and "reverse" flow. Example: The boiler circulator pumps 10gpm, system circulator is only pumping 5gpm. The boiler circulator header will pull 5 gpm of sytem return water and 5gpm of header supply water. This can create a "false" delta T to the GB142.
Also Scott, appologies for the response you received when you called in. There are some newer guys on staff which we are working with. The manifold we provide is designed to help control flow through the GB142. In 95% of the installs the manifold works.