When is a home just a house? (GrandPAH)

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

I met with a young couple yesterday who own a house that was to be their dream home.

You can live in a home without electricity.

You can live in a home without central heating or air conditioning too.

But, a home without water is just a big box!

The township mandates a home can't be built until it can be proven there will be 400-GPD of potable water. Yet, they allowed the structure to be built without a documented well test.

The design for the sand-mound was for a three-bedroom home, yet the builder altered the approved plans without anyone's approval and added a fourth bedroom. The township & SEO have absolved themselves from any responsibility.

The A/C is woefully inadequate. The HVAC contractor won't correct the problem. The inspector who approved the installation without checking for a Manual-J report says he bears no responsibility, yet it was 'inspected' and passed.

The 500' deep "approved" well proved to be bone dry. The builder filled it from the neighbor's well (the developer) in order to trick everyone into thinking it was a 3-GPM well. Went dry the first day of occupancy & has remained dry. 12 more wells were drilled. 3/4-GPM of the weirdest water you'd ever want to see is the best they could achieve. Water is loaded with radon too. Treating the water will require 500-GPD backwash to keep the filtration working, yet the sand mound can't handle that & the SEO won't permit it to be discharged on the surface (the home sits on several acres out in the country). The building inspector passed everything as code compliant.

So it sits empty. A box squating on the landscape - unfit for habitation.

From the twp on down, not one single official or inspector is willing to help them make the builder and developer correct the code violations and meet twp regulations. All this talk about the codes and inspection process being in place to protect the consumer & this is the final result when the chips are down.

lchmb

and yet

And yet I see all the comment's about NH not having codes or licensing. Umm so can someone explain to me what the benifit will be to have licensing in NH? Sound's like all the permit's were pulled for this job. They just didn't do squat and have no power to get anything fixed...YUP think I'll stick with NH..

Live free or die...

Larry (from OSHA)

very sad situation

I can't imagine being is such a lousy situation.

You deal with a builder and have certain expectations.

You get the permits and inspections and expect that the code officials who are charged with the duty to ensure that houses are located and built to the legal codes in place are met.

Things like this are why the term "due diligence" was created. I feel bad for this couple and have an extreme amount of dissatisfaction for the contractor that seemingly took advantage of these folks, but significantly more for the inspectors who not only appear to have dropped the ball, but in such a big way.

Lawyers will be heavily involved in all of this and I suspect that it ain't going to be pretty! The township and all code inspecting agencies should have legal action brought against them.

What a shame.

Larry

jp_2

haul water in

up here in northen Mi health dept will allow you to haul in water.

can use composting toilets, solar electric panels and CF lights.

Tom Hopkins

Of all the woe stories...

That is one of the saddest I've heard here on The Wall. Esppecially if they really are off the grid. I doubt that but it's still a nightmare for my worst enemy's (I have none) dream home.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

hauling water

They tried a large storage tank in the basement for a while. Think about that for a minute and contemplate a few things:

* They were sold a bill of goods. Officials who were either hoodwinked or turned a blind eye to the construction codes have compounded their errors by turning their backs on these folks.

* The water system was DOA.

* They set up a storage tank and hauled water. Imagine being faced with the need to haul in all of your family's potable water for a day - a few days - a week - a month - months on end - forever. Municipal water lines are miles away.

* That water, in turn, became suspect as it was in an atmospheric container and subject to contamination too. There's children involved & if you're a parent, your first thoughts revolve around protecting the innocents.

Bob D._2

AHJ Inspections

What do you really expect? The builder (1) changes the building design so the sand filter system no longer "matches" the load, (b) falsifies a well flow test, and (c) God only knows what else, then you/we blame the Code Enforcement Official (CEO) for not "inspecting" adequately. I'm shocked, simply shocked! This couple got screwed alright, by the "Builder". Municipal "inspections" are just to ensure that the installed system or equipment won't kill anybody right away, at that minute. Not five minutes later, not a day later, and not that a system or installation is adequate or will work either. The CEO is NOT an on-site, full time, Owner's Rep. or Construction Manager or a design professional. What do you really expect for the permit fee? You want to pay for a full time Inspector? If he's given falsified documents, his decision will be based on whatever the documents say, unless it's really, really, bad. Yeah, these people got screwed, but they sure saved a lot of money by buying their plans out of a plan book, not hiring an Engineer or Architect to QC the overall design or the work, and by hiring the lowest bidder GC. What do people expect to happen?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

expectations

1: That the work be inspected by a professional who is well trained and who actually inspects the work.

2: That the codes officials who passed the sub-standard or defective work recant their approval and admit theu erred in passing the work. That the owners who are paying for these inspections (ultimately, those costs are passed on to the owners) deserve nothing less than complete support in their efforts to make the builder and developer bring their work into full compliance with the codes, rather than walking away while saying they (the inspectors, SEO and twp officials) bear no responsibility. They too have failed to perform their duties in that event.

In short: any homeowner who finds themselves in this kind of position should find that the various officials involved would assist them in getting these issues resolved.

If you lay down a set of rules and then agree to enforce those same rules it seems blantantly obvious you are obligated to ensure the rules were followed. BTW, the so-called falsified test reports were not complete and appear to have deliberately left out the required info. Overlooked and missed.

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Bob_41

Underground cistern

Sounds like they'll need at least:

http://www.plastictanks.ca/product.php?prod_id=01225

and both a chloronator and UV system.

at 60gal/day/person design that's really only 10 days reserve. Not a pretty picture.

Bob D._2

Sorry, but . .

There is not a jurisdiction in the Country, of which I am aware, that assumes ANY responsibility for defective design, workmanship, or any other aspect of construction with respect to suitability of the end product for it's intended use. You're "whistling in the wind" my friend. This couple is going to spend another small fortune on lawyers, expert witnesses, and "temporary" housing, and they're going to have a sour taste in their mouths about this house for the rest of time.

Don't get me completely wrong - what happened to these folks is a crime, and is very sad. I'm just saying that trying to get anything out of the CEO/AHJ is not going to help, and just build more frustration for all concerned. The CEO is NOT going to help, and you'll probably find the AHJ is "immune" from any litigation. A sad situation for all concerned. - Bob

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

you misunderstood

I agree that the officials are not responsible for the defective work or, for that matter, the apparently deliberate deceit.

However, it is blatantly apparent that the codes officials did not properly perform the inspections. We're paying for professional inspection services, yet receiving rank amateur performance - or, in some cases, no performance.

When I obtain a mechanical permit, I expect the inspector to inspect our work. When (s)he arrives, I fully expect (s)he will conduct him or herself in a professional manner and be dressed and groomed accordingly. If the inspection appointment is for 3 PM, then showing up at 5:30 PM is unacceptable. In my area, that simply is not done. (See: Hector the Inspector at contractormag.com). That $170.00 plus my $70.00 for the time spent obtaining that permit was wasted. The owners received nothing in return for the $240.00 they were forced to shell out. Are you suggesting that's an acceptable performance?

In this particular case, a number of readily apparent code violations were overlooked. No responsibility?

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Mitch_4

Bob..where did it say?

"buying their plans out of a plan book, not hiring an Engineer or Architect to QC the overall design or the work, and by hiring the lowest bidder GC. "

I cannot find that information anywhere in this thread!

I have worked with some excellent devollopers, and GC that build entire subdivisions using a variety of set plans, or bring your own..

Sorry but from what I read, they went to a new devellopment, that had a GC, and went with them assuming that they would be there for the process, Had permits and inspections to make sure it was legal, and they are getting the royal shafting here.

Around here it is common to use the areas GC, trades, companies that bid for the job and there are performance regulations before they get paid too. Must be different there, but in ANY case the H.O. should not be at fault.

Many a rave has been posted about low bidders, and generally they do not pull permits,and I have red often that if they did, at least it would get inspected and meet MINIMUM code requirements. Well they did that here, and the inspector is sayingit meets code when it clearly does not. Unapproved alterations, falsified tests...they should be revocing the approval, fining the bldr and dvlpr, forcing correction and compliance..isnt there some consumer protection agency in place for this? I assume this is all documented.

Mitch

Paul Pollets

Bring in the lawyers....

Sad story...if hydrofracturing the wells can't give 3gpm, then I suspect the lawyers will find a way to get the homeowner's satisfaction. What a joke.



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Bob D._2

Take your pick . .

Prometheus, Don Quixote, any other relevant myth. In any event you are absolutely correct. Things SHOULD have been done right, on time, and everybody should shake hands, sit around the campfire, and sing Kum-by-ya. Ain't gonna happen. You really want a thorough, complete, exhaustive inspection? Most guys would spend 4/5ths of every day on tear-outs and "do overs". What is really wanted by most guys, whether they'll admit it or not, is for the Inspector to do a "drive-by", and sign the job off. (O.K, a little exageration, but not all that much!) Sorry but we don't live in a perfect world. All we can do is the best we can with the cards we're dealt.

Bob D._2

Read between the lines

OK, I took a little liberty and read between the lines: filled the dry well from the neighbor, who just happens to be the "developer"; the building lot is a couple acres; no municipal sewer or water, no electric - This suggests, and all it does is suggest, to me that there's a good chance the "developer" is a local farmer (or real estate guy that bought out a broke farmer) that subdivided a couple, or a handful, of 5 acre "building lots" to get some retirement money. Happens everyday, everywhere (I'm in Upstate NY - really, really rural). The typical Town planning board (unincorporated) is made up of 2 or 3 other farmers that want to do the same thing, and maybe one of the local Realtors that just likes to "volunteer" his time. They don't WANT the subdivision rules strictly enforced! It'll cost 'em $$$$. No contractor licensing or registration. Mail in your well and septic reports to the County Health Dept. Code enforcement is contracted out - one part time guy, no mileage allowance. Gets $25 a pop, Town gets the rest. "Typical" upstate GC's truck stencil says "Contracting - Excavation - Heating - Plumbing - Roofing". It's one stop shopping!

Think about it - If this was a reputable Developer, and all the "rules" were followed, would this couple have had half the problems outlined in the story? "Consumer protection" in my part of the Country comes in little foil packages (sick joke, sorry). There is nothing at the Town or County levels (not even BBB), but I guess you could try to get the New York State Attorney General out of his news conferences to help, I guess. Get in line . . . .

Look, 99.9% of the time the GC is a regular guy, doing the best he can, everything works out fine and the Buyer is a happy camper. Once in a blue moon the Buyer gets bit by a skunk, and everything turns to s--t. If we really, and I mean REALLY, try to dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s, then all we will end up doing is driving the regular guys out of business and bring everything to a grinding halt, except for the really, really rich. They follow the Golden Rule - "The one that's got the gold makes the rules."

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

most pros

want their work inspected, if inspections are to be required, by a pro in that area. That's what ain't happenen pal. The inspections, at least in my area, are little more than a sham. A fradulent practice by any other standard.

Are you suggesting inspectors shouldn't be held to a high standard? That it's just fine if they don't inspect properly? Hell, if I'm going to be requirted to get my work inspected, then I fully expect that's what must be done. And that, my friend, is exactly what I'll be pushing for in the coming months and years. It's time we demanded that inspectors performed their duties for which they are being paid. Count me among the no longer willing to stand silently by while the homeowners get hosed by incompetent inspectors.

I've begun the process & have a meeting scheduled next week to begin planning how we can meet with PA's officials to begin the long journey home.

I don't give a rat's behind how busy or swamped the current inspectors are. I've heard that excuse one too many times regarding why they don't believe they can schedule and inspect properly. If it takes four hours for a proper inspection, then so be it. We're pros who take pride in doing things the best way possible & in most cases, above the min standards in the codes. If we've made a mistake, we'll gladly accept that finding and correct the work. And, if enforcing the codes properly forces out the sub-par contractors, tough love baby. And that leads us to overall codes enforcement and those who are currently skirting the regs, permit process and getting away scott-free.

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Bob D._2

Laugh or Cry

http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=2300598&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

This is a link to a "special investigative report" by a NYC TV news show. These guys are private sector inspectors required by NYC for structural welding inspections. The later parts are even better than the first part.

Yeah, tell me all about "doin' the right thing".

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

spec home

The home was up for sale - a spec home. Finished when they saw it for the first time. The neighbor, who is the developer & not a farmer, was discovered filling the 500' deep well with 50-gallon barrels. Told them that was necessary to "start" the well. In hindsight, they realized it was so the well would appear to be functional.

The builder is in business full-time as a builder & is also a neighbor.

I've been hired to provide a suitable water treatment & storage tank system proposal for their 3/4-GPM well.

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Bob D._2

Nice, a Potemkin Village - Caveat Emptor (Not Really!)

I would LOVE to be at their neighborhood block party! I don't think anyone is going to trust their new neighbors to get a fresh "coldie" from the cooler . . . . Senario's still the same, just a variation on a theme. I've seen these too. Most people use more care than this when buying a used car . . . .it's a shame. These folks probably do have an "implied warranty of fitness", since it's a new home sale and all.

By the way, if the water system you provide "fails", for whatever reason, are you going to accept liability? I'm pretty sure the new buyer (after the current couple puts the place on the market after you fix it, and unloads for a song) will expect a guarantee, or at least an "implied warrantee".

These boots are made for walkin', and that's just what they'll do . . .

mtfallsmikey

Dave: does Pa. have

Anything like a contractor's transaction recovery fund like they have here in Va.? Contractors are assessed a fee yearly to keep money in the fund, administered by the state...just for situations like these...which this has to be the most horrific I've ever heard of, eiether on or off the Wall.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Not

that I'm aware of.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

humor ahr ahr

Bob,

You're cracking me up here.

If I tell you an A/C system that I've designed will cool the space & it's undersized, I get to eat the costs for making that right. If I design a well water treatment system and it fails to perform the job as specified, I get to eat the costs to make that right too. While it may be a foreign concept to some, it's called being responsible.

In the past 107 years we've made a few boo-boos. No one had to call a lawyer or file charges - we voluntarily took care of any issues. Could have something to do with the reputation we've eraned in our community. Like the time I undersized the A/C for a bar. Ouch. But the system was replaced at no cost to the owner. Live-N-Learn class in the school of hard knocks.

So, I guess we'll need to agree to disagree regarding the responsibility issues.

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Bob D._2

I LOVE you, no s--t!

You've obviously been around the block, but I'm not really sure you understand just how RARE YOU ARE. Thank God the few problems you may have are small enough for you to "eat" the costs! I would crawl on my bare belly over red hot nails (not a pretty sight, I grant you) to work with a Contractor that actually acted on your words! Most outfits I have to deal with (all licensed in NYC, bonded and insured) seem to have their company names "velcro-ed" on the sides of their vans and trucks, and use plain paper for invoicing, no letterhead. (All the better to change the company name when they default on a contract.) ABC Heating & A/C becomes BCD, etc. Same folks, different name. Something not installed as specified, doesn't follow the installation manual, wrong size, wrong number of units, doesn't work, whatever . . .not their problem! You want it fixed?, it's T&M . . .let's talk about those Change Orders . . "What back-up? Your guy signed the tickets!" "Here's the Invoice. Oh, that was just a freakin' ESTIMATE", "I know the drawings show four boilers, but we figured you only needed two bigger ones. Your CM didn't seem to mind. We won't charge you any more . . ."

It really is unbelieveable. You could not make up the stuff we deal with every day! The city so nice, they named it twice. If I couldn't laugh, I'd cry. While my work is all in NYC, I live upstate, and the business, outside of a few municipalities, is pretty much unregulated. It really is the way I described it in the previous comments.

Want to bid on any work in NYC? $$$ don't really matter. Remember, it's the lowest "QUALIFIED" Bidder . . . .

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

tough love

Bob,

Don't take this wrong, but that's hard to believe.

If I'm bidding a job that was designed by someone else and it's installed to specifications - they're responsible if it can't meet the design load conditions.

When I'm hired for consulting work to determine why a hydronic radiant system is underperforming, my findings bind me to the resolution and make me responsible if I erred.

But, I prefer to do my own design work, which makes me the responsible party. Maybe that's why we're seldom the low bidder!?!

Here's an extreme example & a bit of my dirty laundry to air in public. When I was in my first few months of independence as in "on my own", I bid and was awarded an HVAC jub in one of our Historical Society's buildings. A stately downtown mansion with an old hybrid steam system. The front half of the building was the formal entertainment area where guests were received. Warm air scrolled registers graced the walls and suspended in the basement, there were wooden boxes with steam rads inside. Gravity air flow was regulated by a wooden slot with panel.

The standing rads were in the rear half and on the upper floors. Evidently they found the sight of standing rads distasteful and wanted them out of sight.

So, I figured with ductwork already in place, I'd put in a furnace for the front and a steam boiler for the rear. Everything worked like a champ.

Three days later, I got a call from the director telling me the board was meeting in executive session - an emergency meeting. Why, I asked, was he telling me this? “Because you’re the subject!” Why? Turned out that the 120-year accumulation of sooty dust that was the consistency of finely sifted flour had become airborne by virtue of the fact that the ducts were no longer a gentle gravity flow. So, I instructed him to go back into that meeting and tell everyone present that they could forget about worrying what to do – I would see to it that everything was corrected. The drapes had to be flow to a specialist on the west coast for cleaning, paintings went to other specialists, antique wallpaper, and so on… It didn’t cost them as much as a penny. I accepted responsibility. While I could have said I wasn’t responsible for the dust, I was the one who altered that system and installed the furnace – that had a blower.

The funny thing is, I can look at the posts on this site and see – at a glance – a thundering horde of other responsible contractors who would do exactly what I’ve done and we’ll continue to act accordingly. That's one of the things that keeps me engaged here. No doubt none of us would be identified as low-bidders, but folks get what they pay for.



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Bob D._2

Ditto

My personal best, without getting into details, involves a nursing home, a new 200 BHP "summer boiler" (indirect DHW), and a call about why they're now running out of hot water for morning showers when the laundry starts up . . . . "What laundry???", I ask. Broke out the checkbook on that one, ouch!