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Mark Olson
Mark Olson Member Posts: 5
Point of Clarification:

Caleffi does not manufacture low loss headers (or hydraulic separators) for Viessman.

Mark Olson

Comments

  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
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    if you havent seen this yet, new from B&G...

    my good friends at wallace ennace in LI alerted me to a whole host of new b&g products - one of them is..

    http://www.bellgossett.com/WhatsNew/LIT15Mar07-Bulletin-A-450A.pdf

    finally they are offering a hydraulic isolator like caleffi - not crazy about their pipe diagram though, the water feeder and exp tank should tee into the bottom of the unit – just above the blow down ball valve, to turn the whole thing into one point of zero pressure change – so you can put the load pumps off a header on the top of one side and the boiler pumps off the bottom on the other side (to keep the head up on low mass boilers) – yet still be “pumping away” either way – these things really provide pumping freedom!! – and they do the best job of getting air and dirt out
  • Unknown
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    B&G did all this and yet..

    They won't make a simple change to improve the flo-check valves 100% better ?
  • Hvacman
    Hvacman Member Posts: 159
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    Questions...

    Whats inside the cylinder and why is this better that the traditional primary/ secondary piping scheme?
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
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    if it's anything like the caleffi...

    Then it has a metal baffle with holes across the center upper third, or something to turbulate the water, and that, coupled with the increase in area, after the inlet, gets the entrained air out of the water at the top, and the dirt at the bottom, so you have primary/secondary hydraulic isolation, an air separator, and a dirt separator, and a nice large point of zero pressure change (if you hook the exp tank in the bottom) all in one, and trust me, it’s a lot less, in parts an labor than separately – I know – cause I have already used 6 caleffi’s and these are even less expensive !!!

    I think the size formula for them is: if “D” is the inlet/outlet pipe diameter, then, the body is 2.5D in diameter, 6D between the upper and lower connections, and 1D above, and 2D below the connections – from Caleffi you can get a scaled autocad file and take accurate measurements – I wanted a 6” one and was going to have someone make it up but found that Caleffi was actually letting you order the 6” ones
  • Marianne Szczech
    Marianne Szczech Member Posts: 2
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    new B&G product

    Kal,
    Thanks for the suggestion on the piping diagram. I'll keep that in mind next time we re-print the literature.

    To "rjbphd",
    I'm still a bit new here and not sure what you mean by "They won't make a simple change to improve the flo-check valves 100% better ?". Can you give me some specifics? We also have the Hydrotrol and Checktrol as means to control the flow. Perhaps those could address the issues.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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  • Unknown
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    one word

    yes

    Caleffi also makes the Viessmann
  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554
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    Welcome Marianne from B&G/ITT

    It's always good to see a mfgr. at least monitoring our posts here. We try not to bash too much but always express concerns and satisfactions with products and, especially, product support. I don't know what the doctor meant by 100% flow checks either so we'll have to wait for his reply.

    ITT/B&G is a great source of hydronic specialties. Heck, you guys are pioneers. When I first started hanging around this site I was amazed that the east coast professionals were B&G diehards and up to date on all the new offerings yet my suppliers in the Chicago area still weren't stocking much more than series 100 and NRF22 pumps, some flow checks and pressure reducing valves, and some other miscellani. They all stock B&G and if I walk up to the counter and ask about the new hydro seperator, or 3speed pumps, or flow check pumps, or microbubble absorbers, they'll probably give me a blank stare and tell me it's special order.

    Just some observations from a small contractor in your backyard. I drive past the plant in Morton Grove regularly so I think of these things.

    Welcome again to The Wall. There's some real special people here. Not to mention our host, who holds Gil Carlson, the originator of the wheel, in such high esteem. If you don't know who he is, check with your superiors, search this site, and you'll see why all hold him in such high regard.


  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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    who cares - bottom line, it costs less from B&G!!!...

    Honeywell and one other (cant remember the name) are working on it too - i would expect that taco will also if people really start using it

    - same thing will go for those permanent magnet ElectroniclyComutatedMotor supper low wattage pumps - another thing whose time has come to be mass produced – if USA pump manufactures don’t do it – then wilo and laing will be mass producing them in the far east and b&g and taco will be playing catch-up – “technology waits for no one” – zone valves and pressure differential bypasses are so yesterday – someone soon, (it might even be me ;) ) will come out with a manifold with a bunch of ECM pumps on it – siggi has tried to light this fire but the manufactures are sleeping – not smart!!!
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Wasn't the original \"Red Fox\" built by Wilo?

    Maybe B&G needs to go shopping again ;)

    hot rod

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Like this, Kal

    I have a handful of the D series 3-33W Laings. Trying to get some production samples of the E (120v) series. I here Vaillant is buying everyone Laing can produce for boiler circs!

    Note the Grundfos Alpha pro for the boiler circ.

    I need someone to build a controller for driving these VS zone circs from a thermostat input. Any ideas?

    hot rod

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  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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    too KEW-EL...

    finnaly someone with a hydro isolator with a sensor well!!!
    is anyone watching??? - U is numero uno !!!


    are the laing's using PWM or voltage mod, or do they have a freq input?, we can build most of this with a 10k sensor on the “R” of the Resistor/Capacitors input for a good old 555 timer chip – do volts to freq or vice versa

    we could beg the tekmar people to build us something, after all they do it for the taco v series pumps – maybe the HBX people – HBX is coming out with all sorts of cool stuff

    nah – we are on our own, I’ve got do dig out my electronics cookbooks thought, perhaps we should Google this, boy!, do I wish I had time to come out to you and work on this!!!
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    I added the well after

    reading one of your earlier posts.

    Here are some specs on the Laing E series. Looks to be na affordable ECM circ?

    http://www.laing.de/eng/products/pumps/heating_pumps/

    I can't answer your question about the means by which they control the speed. I need to get more info from the Laing folks. They were busy at the solar show in Cleveland last week.

    hot rod

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  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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    my local rep continous sales...

    is working on a quote and avalibility and tech info... then i will be a whole lot smarter - ps viega makes stainless manifolds with serious flow capabilities per port
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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    lets be fair - lots of stuff changed when ITT took over...

    B&G is no longer in full control - everything has to be sold to the ITT shareholders by the numbers - how many people like us are there out there – sure, dan and siggi are making more every day - but a hard positive trend has to be shown to the shareholders - their big red pumps are a proven money maker – but they let taco and grundfos take a huge chunk from them – they need to take it back before wilo and laing takes the rest

    b&g is not a "mom and pop" org like Lochinvar, so i graciously accept whatever B&G is doing for me and try to "sell" them on new stuff - cause they are going to have to “sell” it too, - and your right - they will have to “buy” ECM pumps - cause ITT will never justify an in-house development, ITT already has the technology but hasn’t crossed the line, as ITT also owns GOULDS, who possesses electronics capability in the variable speed drives – so now how does we get it into B&G without anyone loosing their jobs – we don’t want that, as you need people with “real” incomes to buy our hydronic solutions

    Here is a link to the companies under ITT
    http://www.itt.com/products/default.asp
  • Unknown
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    Really?

    Wow, I wonder why I was told they did?

    Mmmm. Really makes me wonder.
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
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    LLH

    If I remember correctly, Viessmann's low loss header is manufactured in Denmark? I cannot remember the name of the company.

    The Caleffi/B&G version is very nice. But there are so many innovative ways to design a hydraulic separator. Nothing against B&G at all, but why do American companies so often appear to simply private label others' innovations?
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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    where are you getting the alpha's???...

    i have lochinvar thinking about vaiable speed outputs
    on the pump outputs - and HBX CONTROLS is doing their own VFD
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    ITT= it takes time

    I'm not sure they focus on the small niche residential market like the use to?

    They shuffle through employees on a regular basis. But they have had spys at many of Siggy's classes.
    Maybe change is possible?

    hot rod

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  • Tom Hopkins
    Tom Hopkins Member Posts: 554
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    Well said, Kal...

    I was just making an offhand comment about the availability and market push of B&G products here in the area where their corporate HQ and some manufacturing reside. The residential and small commercial market, where most of us here at The Wall work, might be a very small percentage of B&G sales, much less ITT.

    It is good to know that they have someone out there monitoring The Wall listening to us though.
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
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    now for a counterpoint...

    the thing is that for the local rep Wallace Ennace, it's a fair chunk of their business, and they are really committed to the produces and support of them, hey, dan himself was a B&G rep engineer - and as dan pointed out to me last week this site comes up #1 in google searches on the heating subject - so ITT cant afford to ignore us – cause for shareholders, perception is everything , and B&G certainly wont, as we still are their roots
  • Kevin Koenig_4
    Kevin Koenig_4 Member Posts: 36
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    VS Pumps

    What's with all the Hype with VS circulators?
    The B&G NRF-22VS has been on the market for over a year and people are just not buying them. Granted you need to give it a signal for DP control. Dwyer instruments makes a DP transmitter that costs about $270.00 and the NRF-22VS trades for around $200.00 bucks. So the cost of providing constant DP for a small system is currently at $500.00
    I Personally dont think the US market is going to deviate much from zoning with constant speed pumps at this kind of premium, Especially with the availability of three speed pumps allowing installers to tame down the hydraulics of low cost circulators. Time wil tell !!
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    What helps the VS circ concept

    is the availability of ECM motors. The ability to not only control delta T or P but to start using circs that are in the 30 W range. Now you have all the controlability and low power consumption.

    I also think havinng the "brains" built right into the circ helps, as opposed to field wiring.

    Time will tell.

    It depends on how well these manufacturers market them!

    Market to the "green" revolution and I think they will sell.

    hot rod

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  • kal_2
    kal_2 Member Posts: 60
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    i used taco vs pumps...

    and the problem is mostly knowledge how to use them , the taco docs are weak and they are PWM pumps and unless you have a good flow control (read close it down 85%) on the return side, it wont be smooth, they are simply too big for the one or two GPM you are usually wanting to inject, not taco’s fault really, just the nature of the beast, whereas, ECM pumps, should just handle it
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