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It's not hard to imagine why..............hb

Andrew Hagen_2
Andrew Hagen_2 Member Posts: 236
Manufacturers have valuable information to add to many of these discussions. At the same time, I would hate to see this board become like the trade magazines where any product manufactured by an advertiser is a wonderful product and nothing negative is said ever. It's all part of having a discussion.

Comments

  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    manufacturer's don't.........

    .....post here. As evident in the 2000 thread, they just get beat up. It's a shame, really, because they could be a real asset to the Wall.

    hb

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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557


    I spoke with a rep at NAOHSM this year, I think he was from Carlin, who said they don't even read the threads anymore for the same reason.

    It would be nice, and I don't think too much to ask, if we could have civil conversations and an intelligent exchange of ideas. I think most of us do that, but there are those few who can't. When I read their posts I can imagine them laying on the floor, kicking and screaming, because they aren't getting their way.

    And that is all I have to say on the subject.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    on the other hand, just get over it!

    yeah, there is always going to be a knucklehead or two in the crowd.

    We have a good group of gentlemen manufacturers and reps that can handle the heat here, and reap the benefits.

    hot rod

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  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,398
    This is perhaps why

    we see Johnny White and Joe M. from Taco, Noel from Slant-Fin, Joannie from Laars, Joe at Buderus, among others. Some know the value. Even f not responding, lurking can be of benefit.

    This does underscore the need for civil discourse as a base condition. That aside, this site is an excellent finger on the pulse of the industry. Ignored at their peril, IMHO.
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    The \"Wall\" has matured

    to a point where it pretty much self regulates the "out of liners" and as we have seen recently, MOST apologize when they calm down.

    If a manufacturer can't handle some online critism... well maybe.

    Question authority :)

    hot rod

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  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    the lochinvar peope listen..

    and they contacted me directly after i flamed them for the few problems i had with the knight, and they fixed all the problems and were very gracious about it, they cant post on the wall, because they cant make sure you will respond and allow them to verify that you did not misinterpret their post – it’s a legal nightmare – one of their techs did post and he got in trouble, but you can be sure that they are monitoring the wall, they would have to be dumb not to and I did not see any stupid people when I was there
  • John White
    John White Member Posts: 120
    2 cents

    Let me throw in my 2 cents. My dad always made this point with me: "You really can't hurt my feelings if you are trying to help me." The wall has by and large been a really good experience for me. I don't mind criticism, and I LOVE compliments.(Just kidding!!) But most of the input has been good for us, some changing our direction in places. It's not a perfect world, so there will be some less than tasteful issuances, but so what. Get on with it, and glean out the best. It can be frustrating for a manufacturer, as there sometimes seems to be a question of loyalty. But it is important to know that the manufacturing business boils doun to continual improvement, and you guys have really proven to me to be one of my best roads there. Just some honest comments, so I hope no offense.
    Very warmest regards, and for those going to L.I. Big Ugly, have a blast. Wish I could be with you. Mad Dog is a sure bet for a great time!!! jw
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    threads of the tapestry....

    threading Truth into fact ,is something not easy to accomplish...while Brad is an adept at the use of humor to change the perspective of the mathematical details ,which is sort of a short cut to the truth ....manufacturers aren't likely to have the opportunity to blend the science with humor when attempting to get a thought across.

    The focus of the manufactures having dealt with constant nit picking before , during and after the products are made, likely has them in more of a "reactive" state of mind at any hint of "here it comes,Again"... I think, that consideration is a good thing.....when one of us has a car and it runs right ...we hardly ever even think of it, have the battery plate collapse and the car not start..!

    "That POS Who'd did i Buy this hunk of junk from Anyway?"

    that would not be a good time for a conversation on the values of the particular car ,battery or ones frame of mind for example....

    Manufactures lose out not keeping their ear to the rail....

    and if it is true for you it's true for me. *~/:)
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557
    Very well said.

    And it's great to have you here.
  • Joannie_13
    Joannie_13 Member Posts: 6
    And

    We're not even all gentlemen.

    :-)

    Manufacturers SHOULD read this site, and should respond when appropriate. Bill, Paul and I from Laars do. Yes, there are times when it's more appropriate to contact the person directly, but when we can respond, we do. After all, that's what we're here for, whether a question comes from the phone, the fax, email, or the internet.

    Frustration with a product happens. I don't take it personally. Rude comments can be ignored. My parents brought me up with a thicker skin than to let rude people get to me.

    Joannie

    Laars Heating Systems
  • Joannie_13
    Joannie_13 Member Posts: 6
    And

    > yeah, there is always going to be a knucklehead

    > or two in the crowd.

    >

    > We have a good group of

    > gentlemen manufacturers and reps that can handle

    > the heat here, and reap the benefits.

    >

    > hot

    > rod

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_



    We're not even all gentlemen.

    :-)

    Manufacturers SHOULD read this site, and should respond when appropriate. Bill, Paul and I from Laars do. Yes, there are times when it's more appropriate to contact the person directly, but when we can respond, we do. After all, that's what we're here for, whether a question comes from the phone, the fax, email, or the internet.

    Joannie

    Laars Heating Systems
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,522
    I think

    that what gets said here also gets said in the field. This is a good place for manufacturers to get a sense of what their customers (past, present, and potential) think of their products.

    Would those who don't read the Wall also ignore comments made at tradeshows, or mail that arrives?

    In another thread, Larry talks about voting with his dollars. Some customers have a problem and just take their business elsewhere. The manufacturer never finds out what's wrong, and never has a chance to avert the loss of business.

    If you were a manufacturer, wouldn't you want to know what's being said about you? I sure would.

    I think the manufacturers who read and post on the Wall understand the power of the Internet, and use it to their best advantage.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Noel
    Noel Member Posts: 177
    I wholeheartedly agree, Dan

    Not posting doesn't always infer "not paying attention".

    Noel
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 705
    my 2 cents

    It’s important to practice vigilance, so everyone receives accurate information from the collaborative effort of all resources, including manufactures, that should be the authority on their own products. The wall is interactive, and some correspondence is discretionary.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions


  • As a rep - I enjoy "the wall", Yep, my principals are stepped on sometimes but that's more than made up for by positive comments.

    What I like most is that I continue to learn from your postings.
  • Leo G_101
    Leo G_101 Member Posts: 87
    Ahhhh, the wall and

    the truth and the flamers.......

    Here's my example of what this place does for me. Remember the Viega thread? I had/have been thinking about buying the press system for years now, but had my druthers. After that thread, you would think that I would be more agin then fore. What it really did was open me up to what could be some downsides, that I would have never thought about. BUT, because this perspective was brought to my attention, I REALLY looked at the product hard! I am now prepared for some problems THAT may pop-up. If they do, I will not be a whinee customer.

    Our company is now a proud owner of a Ridgid press tool, and the 2" fittings will be arriving in a couple of days.

    Yes there was a lot of negative comments, and discussion, but what has to be remembered, is that those who succeed look at all perspectives then make the decision that is RIGHT FOR THEM.

    The beauty of this forum IS that you get opinions from all sides! The beast is exposed along side the beauty. And remember, all of life is a duality.

    I have never seen a one sided coin!

    Leo G
  • Rich Kontny_4
    Rich Kontny_4 Member Posts: 73
    A Difference

    There is a difference between "beating up" and "constructive criticism" This site has some of the most experienced and well trained people in the industry,

    The comments may be a little direct and to the point, yet they are coming from those who have to satisfy the end user and reps need to know if their products can do so.

    Quality products may get scrutinized here, however after proven in the field they also get promoted here. It truly is the reps loss if they choose to not participate.

    Rich K.
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
    I Work for a Manufacturer

    This is the best educational site ever. I stop by every day. Where else can you get this type of entertainment. Contractor, Reps and homeowners sharing and occasionally going at it like cage fighters...

    Rick
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Bingo!

    When a specific product commentary is the topic d'jour, we tend to see a combination of independent contractors, homeowners and wholesalers provide measured input.

    Responses and technical support or negative commentary - as the case may be - rarely come from manufacturer's. This not only appears for the reasons stated above (it appears to be blatant advertising by a manufacturer - rather than its intended purpose, to critique product features, shortfalls or general objective criticism).

    When one or two manufacturers choose to engage contractors directly as their agents, the agent's objectivity becomes self-serving forms of more advertising, bias becomes the hidden agenda and rational dialog becomes distorted with even more of the same; e.g. advertising).

    When pure product advertising drives a thread from critical dialog into a bad ad campaign, as did the debacle of late, one has to wonder how the company survives with a brotherhood of "shrillness" - rather than reason.



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  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Leo,

    There are many reasons I like you; the way you think and express yourself being among the more obvious ones!

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  • The Wire Nut
    The Wire Nut Member Posts: 420
    Yep...

    ... I think the issue is not whether the criticism is leveled or not. Every product I have ever run across had an improvement opportunity or two. The issue is in what manner the criticism is leveled and how credible it is.

    Long-time Wall users have the benefit of experience when it comes to some posters and the biases that they bring to the table. New users that come to the wall do not have the benefit of that experience and hence can be left bewildered by the strong opinions expressed by a vocal minority. Some posters here have lost their posting privileges in the past as a result of egregious behavior... but again, a new user won't know that.

    Manufacturers may also be left with the impression that they have no control over the flow of conversation and hence prefer to not post at all. Some manufacturers even forbid their employees from posting for legal reasons. However, I agree with Dan that even if they do not have the ability to respond to issues, that manufacturers do well to listen, read, etc. to ensure that they stay on top of the latest tempest in a teapot regarding any of their products.

    Indeed, the Wall can become a flogging post whenever some folk decide to publicly brand a company and its representatives as less-than-honorable. However, in the end, any criticism that is based on feelings, perceptions, and other innuendo will ultimately backfire on the ignoramus that posted it. I say, publish the facts, not the emotions, then let everyone decide for themselves.
    "Let me control you"

    Lost in SOHO NYC and Balmy Whites Valley PA
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    They should

    They should at least read what is being said about their product(s). It is unprofessional to get in the middle of a verbal battle. By not reading is hiding ones head in the sand, by battling is a show of unprofessionalism. The ones who do participate here do it in a very professional mature manner. The ones who contact guys by e mail are reading the issues and working to rectify them. The internet makes it so one can't keep with the status quo.

    Leo
  • Tony_23
    Tony_23 Member Posts: 1,033
    Squarely hit

    You've certainly nailed that Constantin :)

    Problem is, those that it applies to can't see themselves in the mirror, no matter how bluntly they are told. Subtleties and innuendoes are wasted on them, and once that is realized life on the Wall becomes easier. Eventually, the goose egg from butting heads goes away :)
  • Leo G_101
    Leo G_101 Member Posts: 87
    Maybe we should

    keep a score sheet like in hockey. If a new poster comes here, they can look up whomever and see the amount of times they have been in the "penalty box"!!!!

    LMAROTFP!!!!

    The other thing about this place that I LOVE, is how these threeads can be so alive, and just go off on so many tangents!!!

    Leo G
  • Tony_23
    Tony_23 Member Posts: 1,033
    That's a new one

    What does that abbreviation mean ? I can guess most of it, but the "P".
  • however, I'm still waiting...

    Whenever I see the B & G reps at the local and international shows, telling me why their products are the greatest.... I always asked this question and NEVER got the answer even with all those empty promises that they get back to me... What is the relief valve rating capicty on the dual unit pressure reducing/relief valve? No one can answer since its doesn't have a tag on it which I thought its the law to have a rating tag on every relief valve.
    And another, B&G won't do a verry minor simple change with their shortcoming on the flo control units that would make a lot of service people happy. Because of this, made me switch to other brands...
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Manufacturers and salesmen alike believe that the products the produce and sell are, at least in some measure, "the best". Competition and profit combine to ensure that, at least to some degree, this is true. While mistakes are certainly made, should any product prove to be utterly inferior, its production will cease in a free market system.

    Even if a product proves itself to be essentially perfect, entrepreneurs will still try to "improve" on the design--usually for specialized applications. Why? Because once a product becomes a true commodity, only competition remains, and unless a monopoly can be obtained and maintained, profit margins will shrink to the point that few--if any--would be willing to invest in the company. The ordinary paper clip is a good example.

    With hydronics, the most any manufacturer can ever really expect is to produce something that's "the best" for some general use (and perhaps even "perfect" for some particular application) but even then other manufacturers will inevitably develop a competing product that while perhaps not as "perfect" is in some way "better".

    Don't forget that in advertising speak "the best" is not a superlative--it's not even really a comparative. It's merely a statement that "someone, somewhere thinks it's the best." The statement, "is better than" however is directly comparative and nearly impossible to prove--that's why you rarely ever see these words used in an advertisement. If they do appear, lawsuits very frequently follow...

    No matter what we want to think, ALL of us have personal preferences and prejudices. In a public forum such as "The Wall" manufacturers cannot control what is said about their product as they ALWAYS do in their advertisements and sometimes manage to do in the vehicles that carry advertisements--even when such vehicles at least attempt to maintain some independence.

    A great example of this is Bose and Stereo Review. Sometime in the 80s, Julian Hirsch (sp.), in "independent" reviewer of stereo equipment (even if the main vehicle for his reviews was Stereo Review), published a review of the Bose 901 loudspeaker system. While I didn't find it a "bad" review, Mr. Bose could not stand it because it was not utterly glowing--he wanted the reader to be left with the opinion that it was better than anything else. A similar situation occurred with a review that appeared in the New York Times. As a result Mr. Bose pulled all advertisements from the magazine, stopped NYT as well and moved mainly to direct marketing of future products like the "Wave Radio" via vehicles that didn't concentrate solely on audio equipment. TV, Paul Harvey, Parade and things like that...

    Not only is "The Wall" public, but it is to some degree anonymous. Only personal integrity prevents a "known" poster from using a pseudonym--and when they do it's probably because they have a personal axe to grind--an axe that should really should be ground privately...

    In such a climate--and for the most part it works VERY well here--it's difficult for any manufacturer to directly engage in the conversation. Being the passionate creatures that we are, it takes the utmost in person restraint to avoid the perception of self-promotion or worse yet taking things personally and entering pissing matches.

    While I believe that many manufacturers play quite close attention to The Wall, I believe most see it as a way for them to indirectly learn from the direct experiences of others. Personally, I believe this is the best course for most manufacturers and their reps to take. Notable exceptions are Bill W. at Honeywell and Noel with Slant Fin. Of course Honeywell's line of products is so huge and diverse that he mainly just assists people in finding something most appropriate to their purpose. While they make other things, Slant Fin's line of fin b/b is so broad and so nearly ubiquitous that such "official" discussion can remain on the level of "how best to use our products". With boilers however, no one manufacturer enjoys either luxury--instead they prefer to listen to and even learn from the wonderful mix of people here to do the talking even if it does sometimes get rather nasty.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    hb?

    You wrote, "manufacturer's don't.........
    .....post here. As evident in the 2000 thread"

    EK, their inter-connected and "exclusive" dealers, customers,acting as poster boys and a company officer or three playing dis-interested bystanders writing anectdotal "proof" of how wonderful their boilers are, were the vast majority of pro-EK authors, I find it hard to fathom how you can even suggest, "manufacturer's don't post here"!

    Despite Ken being the incessant skeptical antagonist (I'm being as kind as possible here) he is known to be, he was spot on in defining what was wrong with the suspect legions that came to EK's rescue. Most if not all, had a vested interest in the product and either sell them, make them, or are stuck with them. That's hardly the kind of commentary we can learn much from - considering the tilt. Unless running around with a blindfold is "seeing."
  • Leo G_101
    Leo G_101 Member Posts: 87
    porch

    Leo G
  • Leo G_101
    Leo G_101 Member Posts: 87
    The only problem

    I see in your post Mike, is that unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, the almighty dollar is the thing that gets the most loyalty. I know quite a few "salesmen" who are promoting a product as better then the competitor, until the get their next gig. Then suddenly, that product "wasn't really that good. Why do you think I switched?"

    Turns my gut!

    I have suggested to a couple of them, they may feel more at home selling cars then hydronic material. No laughter....

    Leo G
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    What is the difference....

    .....between EK and companies like Lennox or Carrier, Walt? Dealerships are common on the HVAC side of the trade. Does that make their independent contractor who is a Lennox or Carrier dealer poster boys? I have been to a number of EK training seminars and have been to the factory numerous times and not once did I feel like I was at a Jim Jones day camp. Because their contractors espouse what they feel are qualities, here on the Wall, does not necessarily make them "factory mouthpieces".

    hb

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    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Not Just in \"Your Neck of the Woods\"

    I thought that, "Salesmen sell." (note the placing of the period) went without saying...

    Considering the frequent and often quite valid analogies between hydronics and automobiles, I don't see much difference in selling either.

    Granted HVAC shops are also in the business of selling but as long as they don't get caught up too much in the hype or financial incentives offered by a particular manufacturer they're in the rather unique position of being able to use their experience to offer their customers the products most suitable for their particular situation.

    At times I know I can sound like a Vitodens commercial but while my criticism of such is overwhelmingly positive I still see (and suggest) some routes for possible improvement and would never say that it's either "perfect" or suited for every application.



  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    YIKES! Is that message ever a stream-of-unproofed-consciousness. I'll leave it alone, but please forgive the errors in grammer and usage as well as the rather frequent interruptions in the stream. I was answering business emails as they arrived while writing and it shows.
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 705


    Mike
    Your correspondence was eloquently written; I truly enjoyed reading it while you executed your message loud and clear.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I think you missed Walt's point...

    Lennox and Carrier do not post here. There is nothing wrong with dealerships.

    There is something wrong with acting as if your are an objective poster when in fact you are anything but. Therein lies the problem.

    I looked at the EK thread and found the following:

    Of the 26 posters, at least 7 were individual EK dealers.

    Of all the posters, 9 were "for" (pro) EK. Five were against (con). Of those five, all were independent contractors, unaffiliated with EK. Eleven of them were neutral, having nothing good or bad to say about the product.

    Every poster "for" EK was a dealer save two. The two who were not dealers, were homeowners - who spent a lot of money having an EK boiler installed.

    Not one "independent" contractor had a positive comment on the company or the product.

    Does this not make the "pro EK" comments somewhat deliberate mis-information?

    Does this not also strike you as an assault on the integrity of objective-Wall-information-gathering?

    The fact that six EK dealers and a few company officials provided all the positive spin doesn't concern your sense of "balanced" information just a little?

    The shear volume of posts is interesting too. BigRon the thread's originator, posted the most: 17 times. Second, was John with 10. Third was me with 8. Lawrence Salvatore was next with 4.

    The fact that seven dealers came out to "protect the product" - is not the issue. The fact they intentionaly hid their true association and financial interests - was.

    I too promote products, but I have no financial interest in them, merely high regard and, I choose them, they don't choose me. Were that not the case, I would say up front (something none of the EK dealers chose to do) I had a financial interest in promoting a product.

    Homeowner's are the lifeblood of this site. I believe they should be aware of the basis of a post. If one particular product gets a rave review, I think the homeowner (actually all of us) deserve to know if the rave is objective - or based upon purely subjective marketing agendas - as was the case with EK.

    I think EK crosses the line, and was offended by what I consider as ethical transgressions unfold before me. Whether BigRon452 becomes a victim (as I saw it) or yet another poster boy is moot. He made his decision based on the information given.

    My contention was and is, he had a logical option no one addressed or offered. The two that even responded to his real need, namely making what he already had and owned work properly and fix a leak, both gave the classic sell - rather than repair cautions. As a result, BigRon dismissed the option as "too suspect an outcome" as was mis-led to believe, and opted for the "only viable option" of total replacement.

    I am not upset at BigRons decision. I am upset by the methods used to bring him to that point.

    The reason The Wall is so revered is because we can all provide a mix of inputs that have independence controlling bias. When seven EK dealers and a company officer are the principal source of product praise, The Wall becomes a sham, not the resource.

    And Walt, thanks for understanding my real point - despite your disdain for my "tactics."

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  • Bill W@Honeywell
    Bill W@Honeywell Member Posts: 164
    While I am not able to post as often as I used to...

    I have never had a problem with posting the good or the bad on "The Wall". Sure there can be some heated words, but our host keeps it all under control. The Honeywell water & combustion markets do monitor this site, and take it seriously. Carol Fey also monitors what's happening here as well. I try to respond as fast as I can, but I don't spend all that much time in the office. I can say that I truly appreciate any feedback I get about our products, and do whatever I can to fix what may be wrong myself, or route you to someone who can help if I am in the car, or whatever.

    We Wallies know who the manufacturers are who monitor & post regularly, I can't imagine why any steam/radiant/hydronic manufacturer wouldn't at least check out what some of the best contractors in the business are doing.
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    we wallies, must not get too full of ourselves...

    If you look at the wall for a time you will find only a handful of regular names, there has to be many more of us that never get here, I go “off the wall” ;) for months at a time,
    Dan and Siggi – should have been able to do their course every month all over and have’em all sold out, so it’s the height of hubris to think we are the only heating professionals that matter to manufactures, there are other places and venues that they have to keep on top of, and most vendors these days, with the heavy competition, cant afford to be in too many places at once – not to mention the trade show brain and budget drain, “dog and pony shows”, while cute, are quite expensive, so,
    just because, there is a manufactures response latency on the wall – doesn’t mean that they are ignoring us

  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,522
    I think

    what is of more concern to the manufacturers, or should be, is our Page Rank in Google. Type "heating" or "heating system" or "home heating system" and we come up number one on the generic search side of their results. Because of this, there are a huge amount of homeowners reading this site every day, and that number keeps growing as more people look to Google as their main source of information.

    Probably one percent of the people who come to the Wall each day post. Few homeowners post, but I know they're reading. I can see it in the stats. And I believe that what gets said here, and how the manufacturers handle criticism, plays into the public's buying decisions.

    It may not seem like it, but there are a lot of people here.

    Retired and loving it.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    had no idea of the hit stats, i stand corrected!

This discussion has been closed.