Opinions needed on porch decking materials

Brad White

Any Tongue and Groove wood product outdoors will rot in short order, especially pine. Sugary and the fungus loves it. Water gets trapped in the grooves and it is a martini before lunch.

No matter how you paint or seal, it will not last. Painting and sealing may even shorten the life by preventing dry-out.

Any natural wood decking outside wants to be fir, ipe', mahogany but slab-edged and spaced using a 12d nail or wider for drainage. A good sealant is recommended.

EDIT: For a nice finish, Cabot's Australian Timber Oil. I used it on my outdoor shower (mahogany and fir) and it holds up well.

That said, Trex or the other composites hold up well if you do not mind the look.

Mad Dog_2

As some of you know.................

I learned the hard way, that some GCs will tell you anything and that real wood and porches never get along that well. Anyway, we have started ripping up the 4 year old T&G Pine decking and before I make ANOTHER costly mistake, I am seeking real life opinions from the smartest all-around bunch of guys I know. I have heard Ipe wood is great but very expensive and I really have had it with wood outdoors anyhow. So.....What say you guys? I have heard Tendura has major problems, I think Trex is a little on the cheesy side (that is what the porch steps are now)
have heard Timber Tek is great (from one guy)and I thought Eon looked pretty nice. Opinions and experience? MaD Dog

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Ruthe Jubinville_2

Trex

Jerry had Trex put on our back decking to replace the wood that had given up badly. So far I really like it. I'm not one of the guys but that is one of the "guy's" opinions of what to use.
Ruthe

J.C.A._3

I'm with Brad.Dog!

The mahogany ain't gonna be inexpensive, but it will look nice for many years. With proper care it can last quite well and look like the day of install year after year.

Don't skimp on the maintenance with ANY wood outdoors! KISS! Don't go overboard...but keep it simple. Oils are fairly inexpensive, but need to be replenished way more often. They also look the best, IMHO.

Stains are getting better all the time. You can get waterseal with stains built in now too.A little messy to do but they will work for about a year before needing a good washing and re-apply.

Good luck Matt. Don't forget to show us the photos. The driveway was nice!(Man...you're already replacing stuff? You've only been there for a couple years) Chris

lee_7

I love ipe'. I have it on my front porch for the last three years. I have it in the tongue and groove varity, and while it has shrink a little bit, it still looks good. I let it grey naturally or you can oil it and it will still look it's natural reddish color. The Atlantic city NJ boardwalk has it and Ocean City NJ is looking into it. (problems with previous laws about using wood from rainforests). If it is good enough to stand up to the harsh weather and the salty air, it will stand up to anything you can throw at it.

Edit: Also, Ipe' is hard as nails. I put mine down with a bostich hardwood floor nailer. Works great and no nail or screw holes to splinter or let water into top of boards.

Steverino

cedar

put in 15 years ago, looks great. It is a soft wood so if you're going to abuse it somewhat it may not last.

Mad Dog_2

I AM NOT crazy about the look, but I already took a bath

on the first one. I am tired of the maintenance and will even have my barn sided next year. With the 3 kids and the business, I have ZERO time and can barely keep up with the property. It's funny, whenever I ask the people who moan when I ain't doing the 100% Historically correct thing, what time they will be coming over to paint the barn, or coat the deck...they change the subject. Another funny thing no grants from big companies like Weyer Hauser and no film crews.....Ty Pennington never comes over either!!!!! Yep, I do what I can, but no MO" wood outside. I'm gonna go with the most realistic composite stuff. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

My trex has held up fine, Ruth

maybe it is the battleship grey I chose...what color is yours? Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

3 youngsters, the \"4th\" kid, as my wife calls me

and some Drunk-Irish freinds I have....its gotta be tuff. This won't be a yoga pilates, tea crowd. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

IT makes me sick Chrsi

that is why NO WOOD - NO MO'. As I said, I can barely keep up with the reg. maintenance. We used The Best (wasn't )cheap) stain "Sikkens" every year and iot still did it. Bottom line, the gc said T & G pine with the stain was the way he did "ALL the historic home." I learned alot - the hard way. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Thanks...

Any idea on cost compared to composite? Mad Dog

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hr

concrete!

color it, stain it, stamp it to look like wood, seal it and forget about it. Even suspended 4" slabs a possible.

Or tile it. I'm doing a job with a wood grain looking tgile in the basement.

Or a nice green outdoor carpet, for that miniture golf course look

Personal choice really, depends on what you like. Last NAHB show I attended had upwards of 50 manufactured deck and railing companies!

JLC and Fine Homebuilding have done composite deck material comparisons recently. Find them online.

hot rod

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

I have to disagree with you Brad regarding T&G not holding up outdoors. MANY ORIGINAL porch floors using T&G in my area that are approaching 100 years of age and still in decent shape. ALL are at least 1" thick (1 1/4" is not especially uncommon) and ALL are painted. Most (if not all) are old-growth cypress from the days when the swamps were cleared...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I'm going through a similar thing right now Mad Dog. The rather elaborate railings around my 2nd floor balcony (tucked into the NE corner of a rectangular footprint) had severe rot problems after about 6 years. I cheaped out and used reclaimed lumber from the floor joists of an old house being demolished. Some of it was sassafrass (it's still OK) but I'm not sure about the rest (looks like it might be some form of oak but I've never been sure). Also have to make identical railings for the large back deck as the "temporary" things that have been there for about 4 years are falling apart...

For the FLOORS though, I used 5/4 radius edge treated pine. No problem whatsoever with that, but of course it doesn't look like traditional T&G flooring used on porches with roofs.

Unless I've missed something, the composite flooring products don't come in T&G; rather it's very similar to the 5/4 radius edge treated pine. I suppose you could have it milled in T&G or shiplap, but if you go with the radius edge, I'd personally use treated wood, let it weather for a at least a couple months and then use a semi-opaque stain. That's what I did with my floors and the stain--remember neither of these floors are covered by a roof--are just now needing a renewal.

If you have some time and want a traditional look, I'd buy the treated 5/4, pile it with "sticking" just like for air drying, let it stay in the weather for at least 6 months and have it re-milled as shiplap with about 3 1/2" face (yes, you'll loose a significant amount of wood in the conversion), install and then paint with a good floor and deck enamel.

The composite flooring products should last nearly forever but they're not wood--in particular they lack longitudinal strength. It's not uncommon for old porches to have joists on 24" centers--fine for 1"+ wood but a disaster for composites as they WILL give and sag. 16" center support is the absolute minimum and 12" is better.

Back to my situation: A high school classmate of mine is a salesman for a large hardwood lumber distributor www.schallerhardwoods.com in my hometown of Poplar Bluff, MO (formerly the home of the world's largest ever sawmill around 1900). Of the currently available wood he insists (and my research mainly confirms) that Honduras Mahogany is the most weather-resistant natural lumber that's reasonably available. (Heart redwood is an exception but its' cost rises the further away you get from the Pacific Northwest and even by the time it hits Swampeast MO the cost is similar to Honduras mahogany.) Even commercially available cypress is considered inferior.

With a fairly large order of Honduras mahogany (around 1,500 bd.ft. in rough thickness varying from 1" to 4") the average cost per bd.ft. was about $7.80. By far the most expensive wood I've ever bought here in lumber country when I can typically find decent (if ungraded) wood for <$1.50 bd.ft. I would not consider a porch floor < 1" finished thickness but at least here 1 1/4" <I>rough is available. Add $0.15 or so for commercial finishing to 1" thickness, 15% loss for conversion to 4" face width and I'll guess $0.10 per RUNNING foot of 4" face width finished boards with T&G or shiplap. Do the math for your application--faint and then go back to treated lumber...

RJ_4

Deck,s

Try this web site it,s my sons Company www.mytimbercare.com

Brad White

I will yield to

the cypress exception. Very rare in these parts. But I do stand by any system trapping water not lasting as long as one that does not trap water. I can only imagine how long cypress would last if not T&G!

But a fair point, Mike.

Christian Egli_2

A shiner look perhaps


Concrete and other slabs of rock seem very attractive to me - we'd at least know that a long long time from now there will still be a super driveway and a super porch.

Another wild idea if you are done with things wood like: An old commercial building here with wood floors and heavy machinery everywhere has seen its share of wood floor abuse. Protective patches are made by laying durable solid sheet metal on the floor. The wheeled carts can ride by again.

Thus, if you simply attach some heavy-ish sheet metal on your current floor you might get a neat industrial look. Zinc might look nice. There are neat anti-skid stainless products too.

Maybe? Maybe not.

Mad Dog_2

Thanks HR

I will definitelty read those results. MD

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Mad Dog_2

Thsnk you Sir

Will do. MD

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lee_7

depending on where you find Ipe' i believe it is comparable to composite and while still give you the wood look.

hr

Stainless steel diamond plate!

hot rod

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Unknown

I'm with HR...

I don't know nothin' from nothin else on the topic but I DO know Iw as on a composite deck on a hot day a few weeks back and all I could smell was plastic.

hr

A lot of homes around here

are being sided with a cementious looking board product. First 1/2 thick sheets, then a 2X product for a board and batten look. I wonder if the 2X boards could be used for decking? Reminds me of the old transite pipe material

I see some farm trailers around here that have decking made of ground up recycled tires. It takes twice the amount of crossmembers, I'm told,as it is fairly flexible.

Good "grip-shion" and long life in the sun without all the movement of treated wood 2X10's.

hot rod

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Brian_18

Composite

Last year I rebuilt the porches on my 1860's farmhouse, and used Timbertech composite planks.

http://www.timbertech.com/Products/DeckingPlanks/Floorizon.aspx

These are tongue & groove 1.5" x 6" planks. I do have to warn, EXPENSIVE, but I too am looking to shed future maintance. I've now had this stuff down for a full year, and been through the entire weather cycle (Northeast). I have to say, I'm completely satisfied.

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Really? I heard that from a good contractor

that timber was the best.out of the composites. Mad Dog

tim smith

My vote

I vote for ipe or ?? maybe iron wood.

Ruthe Jubinville_2

trex color

Mine is grey also. ..Ruthe

lee_7

no they can not. Very Very fragile. look at it funny and it will crack. Broke 5 of them in a 1 mile trip from lowes. They also eat the crap out of blades.

andy_21

If you go w/ composite, you have to add framing, all recommend 12" ctrs, save the extra money spent on framing & Go w/ 5/4 x4 0r 6 Ipe. Before you install seal bottom,sides & any hidden cut edges, & install w/ hidden stainless fasteners. You won't be sorry. Do it once & be done!

Mike Reavis_2

our TREX deck in the winter.

I am pleased with the product. The contractor really overbuilt the support for the TREX. It is nice to feel no movement when we move. This is a deck however, and not what I think of when I think about a porch.

Leo

Chcukle, Chuckle

If this were a building professional site would the answer be click on the top left of this site to find a professional. Mad Dog is frustrated with some of the advice he received and I'm sure justifiably so. Given that when a customer comes here frustrated we should stop to see where they are coming from before sometimes pouncing on them.

Just an observation,
Leo

Jack

I couldn't agree with you more...

I built a screened in porch several yrs ago and used 1x4 T&G mahogany in there and it looks great, but it is covered. Next to it on the deck and stairs down to the lawn I used the 5/4x6 mahogany (not the same species...apparently), and it jsut looks like hell. It would just burn off the various finsihes in a heart beat. As well, I put a really nice mahogany rail on the deck and stairs. It too look terrible.

I'm fixin' to go composite too. I've got a bit of time for this (have to do the living room, master bath this year)but I'm getting started on the new handrails.I'm going to get some 3" pipe and weld up the posts and railings for poowder coating, then going to use a cable systemn for the "ballusters". The 9/06, Fine Homebuilding mag had a good article on this. For info on the cable rail check out www.cablerail.com, www.ultra-tec.com, www.atlantisrail.com and www.secosouth.com. With three boys you probably want the vert cable so it isn't a ladder to nowhere....

Good luck!

singh

What's the matter with pressure treated?

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Ruthe Jubinville_2

Warps

That's what we had. Warps a lot and if you have small childrenn or like to go barefoot it gets splintery. At least that was our experience. ..Ruthe

Mad Dog_2

Hi Devan

I think P. T. is fine for decks but not a Victorian Porch. Mad Dog

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Likely not a different species--what is different is exposure to sun. There's really only one mahogany but things like "African Mahogany" and "Luan Mahogany" try to hijack the name due to similar appearance.

Despite manufacturer claims, I've never seen a clear coating that will last for very long outdoors in the sun. 8-10 coats of traditional spar varnish is probably still the best, but even it must be "renewed" every few years--the more sun it receives the more frequently maintenance is required. Neglect the "renewal" for too long and you have to completely strip and re-apply all of the coats.

An old (1800s) woodworking book of mine (published in London) suggests that for "general" exterior use, mahogany should be painted lest its appearance rapidly deteriorate (I can only assume they mean turning grey and cracking--not rotting). While mahogany was not top on their list for exterior use it was certainly deemed "acceptable".

For mahogany shop fronts where a natural finish was desired it was suggested that the ONLY way to keep it looking good for any length of time was via a "natural" polish--e.g. burnishing. Even then, a mainly vertical shop front is unlikely to receive as much sunlight as horizontal deck floors.

Six Flags (the amusement park) in St. Louis has mahogany top rails on top of the cattle dividing lanes for most of their rides. As far as I can tell, it has no form of coating. The rails nearest the beginning are often grey and cracked but the further you get towards the end the more they have a beautiful "natural" polish that I would suggest comes from "burnishing" via countless hands.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I did use pressure treated (the older CCA version) 5/4 (1 1/4") for a small back porch (with roof) on an old Victorian. Key is letting the wood season in the weather for at least 6 months to minimize later movement. I lightly planed one face (to 1 1/8" thickness), milled to 3 1/2" face width (with a shiplap instead of T&G) and (overall width of 4 1/16"), painted and last I saw it was still fine.

The problem with treated pine straight from the yard is that it's often saturated with the treatment chemicals and it takes considerable time for it to shrink to its "natural" size.

This worked fine for the small porch--probably about 6' wide by 4' deep (the board length) but may be less practical for longer pieces. Some treated pine boards will warp terribly when you rip to a new width but since you're starting with about 5 1/2" of width (and I was using short pieces) I could cut out the warp--such almost always begins at a point--or straighten on the jointer.

Dave_23

Plastic decking material

Not sure if anyone has noticed this...sometimes the plastic decking material will generate nasty static electricity and shocks. Try walking across it in socks or certain types of shoes, then touch the doorknob...Wow!. I've never had this problem with wood. Granted, I'd like to find an alternative, other than plastic, to my warping, maintenance-hungry wooden deck. It might be worth figuring out a simple, inexpensive grounding method for the deck to alleviate the static. Suggestions?

ALH_4

Aluminum

How about something like this? Lock Dry I have never used it. Aluminum isn't completely impervious to the elements, but at least it doesn't rot or warp.

Perry_3

Teak and other specialty woods

Teak is awsome.... and if you can afford it you can also afford several other fairly limited supply woods that will do well.

Unfortunatly, I am not sure I would do any modern deck in wood outside of the limited supply woods and expect it to last without a lot of maintenance.

As far as pressure treated woods. Creasote treated oak (and some other hardwoods) last forever as long as it is not buried (but even burried it last decades). Lots of old "forest service" towers build with creasote treated wood and still going very strong 50 - 75 years later (even if they have to paint the deck every now and then).

Of course, this kind of wood is hard to get these days. The Railroads still get it - but I think it has been banned for general construction.

I'll stick with teak....

Perry

Christian Egli_2

Algrip.com

Way beyond the aesthetics of a Victorian home, but splendid for strong metal floors that must not be slippery. More durable than the glued on sand grit and not as abrasive on the shoe soles. All available in steel, stainless steel and aluminum too.

http://www.algrip.com/

algrip.com