Energy Efficiency and Energy Kinetics..

Lyle C

A while back I saw a thread that has effected my understanding of energy efficiency. Below is a copy of the message Rocky wrote.

"Brookhaven is performing detailed analysis of actual system efficiency. This is being sponsored by NORA, the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority et al. There are some pretty interesting results coming out of them. For instance, for heat and hot water production, the EK operates with a system efficiency of around 85%, with an AFUE of 87.5%. A gas MODCON has a system efficiency of 83.6% with an AFUE of 95%, an European boiler WITH OUTDOOR RESET has a system efficiency of 75% with an AFUE of 86.5%, and a regular cast iron boiler with a hot water tank has a system efficiency of 55% with an AFUE of 81%. Like I said way back up at the top of this post: If you put away your preconceived ideas of what a boiler looks like and how it should operate, and REALLY look at how an EK works, it may turn some heads. I used to be a cast iron guy. I thought, "Here in Alaska by golly we NEED some cast iron and water volume. A little mass in the **** so to speak." But after I REALLY started looking at the EK, I honestly could not find any fault with their logic. As far as parts go, 95% of them are off the shelf stuff. And, as far as being "in the inner circle", shoot, all it takes is a training class and a credit app to become a dealer, so whats the big barrier to entry? If it works, (and it does)why wouldn't anyone out there want to offer their customers another good option? Just my .02 cents worth. Happy hydronicing, Rocky"

First off I think it is great that Brookhaven is performing detailed analysis of actual system efficiency. That in of itself is a huge improvement. The study has scored the Energy Kinetics boiler the highest.
Here are the system efficiency results.

1)EK at 85%
2)Gas ModCon at 83.6%
3) Euro Boiler Outdoor reset 75%
4)Regular boiler 55%

Here is what I would have expected from the results

1)Gas ModCon at 90%
2) Euro Boiler Outdoor reset 75%
3)EK 70%
4)Regular boiler 55%

I know that a regular boiler running at a higher temperature is going to be around 16% less efficient then the AFUE numbers because of the higher temps so the regular boiler makes sense to me at 55%. The difference between 140 degree water and 180 water is 40 degrees devide that by 2.5 equals 16. For every 2 to three degrees you raise in temps you lose 1% in efficiency.

I know that a Euro boiler with Outdoor reset is roughly 30% better then the standard boiler so again 75% makes sense. This is from some before and after HDD numbers I have experienced.

I know that the Modcon recovers some extra energy from the flue gas condensation that acounts for about 10 to 20%. Actually 83.6% seems low. I wounder what water temps and what control package the modcon was running? Low but not unreasonable.

Now the one that totally through me was the EK. I would have thought that the energy manegement system on the EK would improve the boiler over standerd boilers by 20% at most. The EK is not a condensing boiler so it is letting energy in the flue gass's water vapor travel out the stack. By all logic it should have scored below the mod/con.

Now in my mind there is a conflict of understanding. When you have a conflict of understanding it can only mean one thing. There is a huge oportunity to learn and get smarter.

I want to learn about two things from this.

1) I never really paid much attention to EK because I never really thought it worked well. I now want to learn a lot more about EK and how it works. I think I will sign up for the seminar in the near future.

2) I want to learn more about the study that Brookhaven did. I would like to get a pdf of that study and post it here on the wall so that we can all review it. I want to make sure they are measuring effiency in a way that best matches field conditions and see how the boilers are set up so I can get a better mental picture of things.

Does anyone have contact info for Dr. Butcher at Brookhaven labs?

I am sure I can easily find info on EK from the internet.

John Ruhnke









<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=96&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Howard Emerson

Contact info for Dr.Butcher

Hello John,
A quick search netted this:
http://www.bnl.gov/est/erd/

Happy hunting!

HE

J.C.A._3

John,

Welcome back.

I have spent some time in the lab at Brookhaven...and I'm gonna tell ya, they ARE trying to do it right! Roger and Usef are doing things in the most "real world" ways they can come up with. I will attest to their tenacity!
You can try Dr. Tom at butcher@bnl.gov. Good luck. Chris

Alan R. Mercurio_3

John, Here’s some reading material for you. Enjoy!


Oil Heat Combustion R&D Program

The Performance of Integrated Hydronic Heating Systems




To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

chapchap70_2

Hi John

I've been posting about the Energy Kinetics System 2000 boilers on this site for a couple of years. This thread may be interesting to you.

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=233997&_#Message233997


I don't know where Rocky got his numbers. I haven't seen the document where he obtained them. One of the links Alan provided lists an oil condensing boiler so I am assuming that is a different document than the one Rocky used.

I also find it interesting that Energy Kinetics offers a wall hung gas boiler with its purge control that is NON-condensing. My guess is they believe that the benefits of condensing do not overcome the decreased life of the appliance?

Tom Hopkins

Say

what you want about EK but they are way ahead of the curve when it comes to the importance of standby loss and here is corroboration.Why haven't the Euro's picked up on this? Or are they finding a new market in the USA for their outdated at home stuff?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

John Ruhnke

Our inventive nature.......

Robert,

Standby loss is easily handled by a plate that passes over the intake into the burner to stop air from carrying heat up the chimney when the burner is off. Reillo has a auto one. It comes with the oil burner and can go into most boilers.

Europeans are a society that lives in the same house for generations. Knowledge is passed down. Europeans are great at perfecting things. Especailly the Germans.

America on the other hand tends to be more creative. They come up with the new discoveries. I won't know for sure until later but I think EK may have a new and unique fuel saving method of some sorts. In America it is usually the upstarts or new kids on the block that come up with the creative stuff. Burnham, WeilMcClain, New Yorker, Dunkirk, and Peerless are the good old boys. They all kind of do the same thing and they follow the crowd. Look at HTP (Munschkin) they seem to stand out. HTP was the first American condensing boiler on the market. They are the new kids. EK stands out like that to. Because EK requires high water temps and they had no third party varification on there fuel savings, I dismissed them as sort of a quak. Thus I never looked into how one works. I will now. Now I am very curious.

Our automotive industry is failing because there are no new kids on the block. It is all well established big industry.

At least that is my take on things.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

John Ruhnke

More input equals better results..............

JCA,

When it comes to technical things, no matter what you are doing there is always room for improvement. Look at Nascar. Years back a championship owner had all the eliments in place and they were the best. The following year they added another team. That meant new crew members a new driver and more. Why? The more input from all the different members of the two teams strengthened all of them together. It actually made the team better. Even though they were the best already. This added a trend. All of the owners began to run multiple cars or teams. Soon the small independent teams fell behind and dropped out. This left a few owners with 2 to 5 teams each.

The moral of the story.

1)The more input from different sources the better the results will be.

2)With technology it doesn't matter how good you are there is always room for improvment. Even when you are the best ever, next year you can do even better. (A wheel is better then sliding on a flat surface. A wheel with a rubber surface is better then a solid wooden wheel. A wheel with air in it is better then a solid wheel) (My cell phone has a more powerful computer then a room full of computers 3 decades ago.)

JR

Kevin__Flynn

and yet...

according to EK's website they don't have a gas boiler that has an AFUE as high as 87.5%, only oil.

It looks as if thier comparrison is mixing gas and oil, power burners and atmospheric. In other words apples and trucks.

Kevin Flynn

RojoHo_3

First Condensing boiler on the market.

RojoHo_3

First Condensing boiler on the market.

I believe the Glowcore preceded Munchkin by 20 years or so.
Nice article on integrated systems, thanks for sharing. You are right about the good old boys. That is why the Europeans are eating their lunch.

Look inside the Munchkin and others to see the euro-heart of the Munchkin among others.

If you want your share of a market that is 98% tin, you will have to act like a tinner. Install light weight equipment that vents with PVC (not stainless steel) and make it condensing. Integration makes sense and is something Lennox recognized but was not able to engineer. When you heat a customer's home and his hot water, through in a radiant floor and shovel his walk for 25 cents per square foot for the year, you knocked tin out the door!

I could go on but am getting old and tired.

Ken_40

First Condensing boiler?

The G.E. model L1, made in the 1930's was a condensing boiler, capable of steam or straight water.

They may have been the very first.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jim_139

EK's wallhung

gas system does not have the post purge control. There is so little mass that it's not necessary. Also, because there is so little mass it only takes seconds to reach operating temperature.

As far as AFUE differences between the oil and gas fired systems, the Brookhaven testing backs up what EK's been saying for well over 20 years, it just is not accurate for heat/hot water systems. John is concerned about whether the testing done reflects real world conditions. The problem with AFUE is that it doesn't reflect those conditions. It assumes that all boilers are correctly sized for any day of the year.

AFUE was developed for warm air furnaces, which purge the usable residual heat to the house at the end of the cycle. No standby loss, no stack loss to speak of. On the other hand, the delivery efficiency of warm air systems is low compared to hydronic but is not factored into AFUE. Apples, oranges, trucks?

Lyle C

Steam?

Ken,

Now how could a steam boiler go into condensing mode? When a modern condensing boiler won't condense until 135.

Anyway thanks for the knowledge. I stand corrected. HTP wasn't the first condensing boiler. That is why I come here I learn something new all the time.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

I suspect you meant to write...

"When a modern condensing boiler WILL condense ONLY until 135."?

Regardless, this is one of those "things" we get hung up in. The temperature of the water is one thing. The heat exchanger temperature yet another. The flue gas temperatures yet another. Yes, they have an INDIRECT relationship on each other, but certain parts of certain boilers were larger than today (as in the MASSIVE G.E. L1)

This allowed stratification within the boiler. The G.E. had what I call "economizer tubes" in the last pass, where condensation occured much of the time - if a steamer, all the time - if a water app. The condensate returns were tied into this "economizer" aspect of the boiler and allowed even steam boiler apps. to condense almost all the time. The sole exception being on a "design day" when condensate return water temps went above 160 - at which point virtually no condensing takes place.

Further, the huge system water content in the returns acted as a buffer against fast water temperature rise - within the chamber that did the condensing. Having measured the combustion efficiencies of the G.E. L1's on many occasions, my "shaker" CO2 levels of 12% with stack temps at 150 (on water jobs) and 190 - while steaming - blew my mind. Had I hung out for a few hours, I'm sure the increasing condensate return water temps would have gone into the 205 range, where no condensing could ever take place.

Incredible boilers. With oil @ only 18-cents a gallon back then, the notion of high efficiency fell on uncaring ears. Thesewere IMO the ultimate boilers of the era. Matter of fact, I started in this biz 40-years ago as a result of a customer base of mostly G.E.'s "weird" boilers.

Problems of course were seen with chimney liners that wouldn't hold up, boiler bases improperly cleaned and the sulphuric acid formation of the yellow scale mixing with all the condensation raisning havoc with smoke pipe and such. The boiler itself was a nickel/steel alloy. Not quite stainless, but very good at resisting all the sulphric acid and moisture levels.

In 1956, G.E. dumped the line - cost too much to make, and the rest is history.

I still have all the books. Dan took the main one and posted it in the old stuff archives. You can peruse it there if you like.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Lyle C

Awesome!!

Ken,

Awesome!!

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jim_64

Worth the investment?

Guys I've been following this site for the last couple of weeks and have learned a great deal. I'm a home owner, replacing a weil 68 boiler (about 20 yrs old) with a coil, no DHW tank. 3300 sq ft home 3 bathrooms, 4x6 whirpool in the master. I've installed new windows and went from 1300 to 1100 gallons of oil. I want to be more efficient. I've decided on EK2000 and from what I'm reading, I'm making the right choice. I've been doing tons of homework on this and although it costs a little more, its the most effecient boiler for my needs. Any issues with the unit?? Just want to keep my eyes open!!!

Ken_40

Just this...

And this is a HUGE caveat.

Much of the positive comment above regarding the EK boilers are from those who profit greatly from that mindset!

This is a homeowner based information site. Most responders are either experienced homeowners or professional contractors. However, a few of the "professionals" are agents for a particular brand. A few posters actually own, are employed by or benefit directly from this manufacturer's praises! The homeowners that post are hardly "independent." Ever notice how someone's purchase of something that costs a lot, almost always results in bragging to others how good their selection is/was? That's human nature.

There are many boilers superior to EK's. EK's claims of better efficiency are subject to purely self-serving interests and a bit of pretzel logic.

As long as you know the basis of the claims, and are prone to believing all you read, the EK is the boiler for you.

One example of the "issue" might be this:

I personally have designed, installed and serviced over 50 different manufacturer's boilers. I have been in the wet-heat boiler heating biz for 40-years. I can but any boiler made, from the myriad of wholesalers out there, but cannot buy an EK boiler - because they won't sell me one - and I won't go to one of their schools - because the boiler doesn't measure up to our standards. Their so-called schools are not much as technical training, but rather indoctrination and sales sessions, wherein the end result desired, is that the attendee will become a salesman/installer of the EK product line, with "confidential" pricing schemes that more resemble a club, than a business. Contractors who think this "exclusivity" aspect is a badge of merit, fall in-line the most.

They have intentionally left wholesalers who deal with this stuff daily as well as all the materials EK does not sell but is mandatory to connect it to anything - on a strictly "exclusive" manner.

The product is no more efficient than 10 other far more available brands; and, the fact that newer, better, condensing and well into the 90+% AFUE efficient units are available, both oil and gas (LP or NG) is fact. The fact that many other brands have better warranties and are substantially less expensive - is yet another reason to look carefully.

It is of course your $$$. Just take a few of the posts for what they are; dealers and manufacturers of the brand you seem so enamoured with - touting their product; not to inform; but rather to sell.

Caveat Emptor?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Fredricks_3

But what about the Brookhaven testing. Are they biased one way or another? Unless I missed a point made on this, their testing seems to support the EK units efficiency claims.

I do understand your point regarding their Technical training. Give me the facts, not the sales pitch. Though it could be hard to do just tech without the back ground. It's been a long time since I sat through an EK training session and haven't installed one in 15 years.

Jim_64

Ken

I hear what you're saying!! Now I did ask for references and called a few folks who are happy with this boiler. They ALL say that they have seen a reduction in their fuel bill, and how quiet unit is. Now, I'm not crazy enough to believe that I'm going to see an imediate 40% fuel savings (that would be nice) but I do expect to save money. I've looked into the 3 pass systems, but because of the design and the flue being in the back, they will take up more space. I'm sure everyone who posts here can't be getting a piece of my one sale! If this were a site from my installer I'd be a little more leary. But, It's not installed yet, and I haven't signed any contracts .. Can you tell me what you think is better???

Lyle C

The Jury is still out.........

Paul,

Before the Brookhaven test came a long EK had no third party varification. I have to look over the results and see if it matches field conditions close enough. I will know that soon when I go over things with Dr. Butcher. We are Comunicating and sending stuff back and forth but have not yet gotten all the info back as of yet. It will take a while to sort things through. I will keep everyone posted. Dr. Butcher has done a great job in the past and I'm sure we will be satisfied with the results.

Once there was a study done with the HBRA comparing forced air to radiant. The study basically said that hot air was more efficient. I reviewed the study and found it very flawed. They had a 100,000 btu conventional boiler hooked up to a 20,000 btu system (short cycling). No outdoor reset and no computerized controls and only an r-11 insulation between the basement and first floor. They admitted to me that the basement was 5 degrees warmer with the radiant vrs the hot air. The flaws continued. The more I learned about the radiant hook up the worse it got. It was a very unfair comparison. It turned out to be a comparison of a very bad radiant installation vrs a hot air installation.

JR


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Norm Harvey

Ken,

I'd love to hear your theories on who shot J.F.K.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Tom Hopkins

Ken

Are you disputing the objectivity of the BNL results? I understand that you dislike EK for your own reasons,but to disparage the products performance because you don't like their sales and warranty policies is unfair and misleading to non professionals. But whether you or I or anyone likes the way EK sells or backs their product has no bearing on it's performance.
I sell EK as well as many other Boilers,EK is a minor % of my sales and I make no more or less selling EK than any other boiler.I recommend what I feel is best for the application but the final choice rests with the consumer,sometimes they want an EK but many times not and it's just fine with me either way.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

chapchap70_2

Ooops

Sorry, no post purge. According to their brochure, the EKpak does not maintain temperature and has variable inputs depending on the load required. The benefit given for being non-condensing is "no corrosive condensate".

Ken_40

Okay.

Where were YOU that fateful day in Dallas?

On the grassy knoll?



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jim_139

BigRon452

As you read Ken's posts bear in mind that he has a grudge against EK from I don't know how long ago. He makes no bones about it and has stated the same in other threads. It sounds like you have done your homework in trying to choose a system that will suit your needs. Getting multiple quotes and checking referrals is always a smart move.

Ken_40

BNL

BNL testing is NOT performed to support or disclaim any boiler efficiency claims.

Testing is done to determine many things, none of which confirm any boiler makers claims to the contrary.

Boilers are donated to BNL for their use. If you don't donate a boiler, you don't get included in any testing. EK donated a boiler. They were desperate for ANY validation from anyone that would help sales. Because there's little to compare the EK to, they are one of a handful to be donated, then analyzed. That analyzation includes fuel analysis. Not necessarily efficiency, but rather various fuel charactersitics from Brent Crude, to Venazualen to Texas gold. Fuel blends are tested rigorously. The 'B'-fuels being the latest to be examined. The boilers they fire these fuels in happen to include a rather junkie looking EK. It looks nothing like what a dealer might install in you home. There's sensors and diagnostic instruments all over, fuel in beakers, scales, guys with pocket protectors protecting their pockets, safety glasses, the whole nine.

This is NOT a boiler test station by any stretch. The Results claimed by EK as somehow BNL has "certified" their boiler as being superior to anything else in the lab is pure marketing schtick! The fact tha only four or five boiler are in the lab tells us only this: Of the handful of boilers in the lab, the EK was slightly better than the others; of which there are few.

Burners are tested as well. Not in any particular boiler, just in a test chamber. Coal gasification is also on the agneda, as is various combustion concepts.

BNL does fuel and efficiency research using small grants to do that. Their budget does not permit the outright purchase of boilers for testing.

Were half the things EK claimed BNL were validating their boiler efficiencies true, BNL would tell the world about this and the DOE would mandate we all switch to the EK boiler as a national energy related mission of conservation.

In their dreams. For EK to make the absurd claims they do, then admit the way they get the ever-so-slight efficiency in "real world tests" (NOT AFUE - at which they fail miserably) is the scavenging timer on their control strategy, is marketing at its worst. We've known how to get 10-15% more "real world" efficency since the 50's in the same manner. Back then it was called "constant circulation." I=B=R and ASHRAE did that research and published a paper apparently a handful of people, including the still unborn EK parents, understood.

The fact that an EK sits in the lab at BNL does not prove anything, other than they donated a boiler to the cause.

The fact that they claim to "compete" in that lab against everyone else - and win some prize for being the "best" is marketing hypebole at its best, an outright lie at worst.

The only thing superior to the EK's rather unremarkable peformance is their penchant to market.

"Great marketing will overcome mediocre engineering every time; typically in a ratio of 2:1"

If BNL gets a few boilers donated besides EK's, one can only wonder how they might fare then; but, until there is any resemblence of actual boiler testing of the myriad of makers out there, EK will continue to claim what they do.

If paying 20-30% more for the iron and saving 1-2% in fuel at best, makes economic sense - I have a bridge you may like to buy...

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

The answer is above

To reiterate.

BNL is NOT a boiler-manufacturer's test center for efficiency!

It is a research lab working on energy, fuels, burners and uses donated boilers - of which they have only a few.

EK has chosen to use data never intended to suggest the EK is superior to all boilers made. By doing so they distort the efficacy and merit of what BNL does.

BNL does testing. The fact that some of those tests were done on an EK boiler because that was one of the few in the lab, does NOT make the claims valid. In fact it brings the claim into scrutiny as unethical and a distortion.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

So far, so good.

But; did you ask anyone else that changed boilers if they too had large reductions in the fuel consumption?

ANY REPLACEMENT BOILER WILL REDUCE FUEL CONSUMPTION!

This has little to do with the make of the boiler, but has everything to do the fact that ALL contemporary boilers are required to attain minimal efficiencies. That, and simple controls will add substantial savings over an old boiler.

The data suggests ANY new boiler will get 20% more than an old dog - and almost all old boilers - are relative dogs.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_40

Amazing!

EK claims BNL has tested the EK and "proven" it is the most efficent boiler on earth.

Were that so, don't you think EK would produce a formal document from BNL that actually states that?

That document does not exist.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"