Cast iron radiators

Terry_17

Tara,
I'm a fellow steam HO in Fort Wayne, were in North Central Indiana are you? I may be able to recommend someone. As for this site, you couldn't have found a better place for help and related material. Post as many photos as you can and the HEATING HELP will follow. Don't give up, there is hope. Before the purchase of my brick home, I never would have imagined how comfortable, quite and addictive steam heat can be. Best of luck!

Tara_2

Hot Water Radiators

Hello. I have just purchased a beautiful brick home that was built in 1889. I have the two pipe hot water radiators installed all over two stories of this house as well as an inoperable boiler in the basement with galvanized steel pipes running up. I am restoring the house as original as possible with the exception of the radiators, I would like to convert to HVAC. Do you have any advice on the best way to remove them without causing damage, they are some gorgeous peices? Also if you have any tipes to remove the piping I would greatly appreciate hearing them. Thank you in advance and I enjoyed reading your answer page!

Dave_4

I assume you meant you are converting to forced air? Can you list your reasons for doing this as I would think you would be better off replacing your inoperable boiler with a modern modulating condensing boiler and keeping your beautiful rads.

joel_19

Tara

Why would you ever rip out the radiators? you can add A/C without doing that and Hot air will never be as efficent or comfortable as a good running hot water system , and this is coming from a guy that SELLS hot air system.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

You won't find much encouragement here for removing a hot water system with radiators in favor of forced air.

Old heating systems like that were extraordinarily expensive in their day and most have many decades of life remaining. Especially for someone who wants to "restore the house as original as possible" you should do everything in your power to retain the radiators. Your comfort will be higher and your fuel bills lower than if you use forced air. You'll also be able to install forced air for A/C (if truly needed) such that it's truly optimized for cooling. A two-story home can often be cooled quite nicely using only a single A/C unit in the attic. This keeps cost and disruption down while eliminating the very real possibility of structural damage.

If you utterly must get rid of the radiators, try a "free for the taking" ad or contact heating contractors. You might be able to find someone (other than a scrap yard) to buy them, but you'll probably have to remove them to outside...

Tara_2

New for Me

Hmmm. Well this is the first time I have had someone suggest that I keep them. I have been told that they are not energy effecient and that they don't heat well. Beyond the boiler being inoperable there are leaks and broken pieces on the steel pipes. We are also interested in finishing the basement but the pipes drip water all over the floor. I know nothing about this type of heating except that when I lived in NYC we had free steam heat and just turned a knob. Can someone maybe explain to me in a little more detail why it is beneficial to keep them when I have to have ducts installed for central air anyway? I'd really appreciate it

Larry C_8

Did the system freeze?

Tara, did the system freeze solid and rupture?

Unknown

First time?

First time telling you that the hot water heat is ineffeictly(sp).. You have been dealing with the wrong heating contractor(s).... Find a real BOILER Pro and make your system as comfortable as its suppose too... I've worked at homes where customer ripped out the radaitors against my advisement, since they listened to their "better and so called graduated saleperson" they hated the forced air and the discomfort ....

Steamhead (in transit)

Whoever told you

the radiators "are not energy efficient and that they don't heat well" is trying to make a lot of money on tearing them out. This is a very labor-intensive process and extremely expensive for you. I would call it a ripoff.

If you've ever seen a duct after it's been in use for a few years and filled with dust, mold etc. you wouldn't want it in your house. Plus, the typical duct system loses an average of 20% of what goes into it. Piped heating systems like steam or hot-water don't have these issues.

The newer mini-duct systems do much better in these areas, but they work much better for cooling than heating. The fast-moving air makes you feel cooler, which is great in summer but not in winter.

Dripping pipes can be fixed. Your radiator system will work much better than forced-air ever will. Go to the Find a Professional page of this site to locate someone who can help you.

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Tara_2

I don't know, nor do I know how long the actual boiler has been broken. I just know that upon inspection we found a piece of the galvanized pipe busted off, evidence that the floor got wet underneath the pipes and very wet asbestos insulation wrapped around the pipes.

Dave_4

contractors

Tara, many HVAC contractors only know force air and that's what they would recommend as they would not have the knowledge and skills to handle the hydronic work.

I have a similar house built in 1913 with beautiful cast iron rads. I added A/C by using the ductless models. You should consider this before having a lot of ductwork installed.

It isn't very efficient to use heat ducts for cooling but it is the cheapest way to go when the ducts are already there.

heatguy

dont do it

warm air heat sucks and blows dont do it

Dave_4

value of your rads


Just so you know, I had to pay around $400 (primed) for a reclaimed cast-iron rad when I built an addition. If you have a large house you probably have close to $10K in rads and you may not feel as good about getting rid of them.

Dave_4

asbestos

Sorry, I just saw you mention asbestos. If your plans include the removal of the asbestos, it is going to be very costly as there as it is a very complex process to remove safely remove it. It is best to leave it alone if you can.

Tara_2

Okay I will do this. Will the boiler professional be willing to repair the pipes since they are wrapped with asbestos? The guy who estimated the heating and cooling conversion told me his guys wouldn't touch it. I appreciate all of your comments as I am starting to feel overwhelmed by this project because of what everyone is telling me. I guess the next step for me would be to contact a professional and find out what's what.

Tara_2

There are no professionals from that site in this area

Larry C_8

There are no professionals from that site in this area

If you give the people here the area you are in, they may know of a Boiler Professional that his not listed.

Unknown

what area is that?

Where are you located?

Tara_2

I have found a "boiler specialist" here from the phone book, is that good? I am in Northcentral Indiana

Unknown

yes, yes....

You are the right track so far.... I'm sure in that area, there are some good hydronic heating system companies.. Just tell them of ur problems... You have the wallies from this site to back you up...

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

The guys are right

People pay top dollar to have those rads installed. Mad Dog

Dave_4

asbestos

Depending on what asbestos removal work is required, an asbestos crew may need to be hired prior to the heating work starting. I don't believe heating contractors will touch the stuff but there could be exceptions.

When I replaced my 90 year old original cast iron boiler, I had to hire a crew to remove asbestos on the boiler as well as from the piping near the boiler. Any asbestos on pipes where no work will be done should be left alone.

Tara_2

Martin,

What do you mean you added AC using the ductless models?

Larry C_8

Ductless AC

Ductless AC are units that use an outdoor unit like a regular central air system, but have 1 up to 4 remote inside air handler units. The remote units can be mounted almost anywhere in the house and they cool a limited area. There are no big ducts to run on or in walls, they are relatively low profile, and quiet.

Search for mini split, or split Air Conditioners.

Dave_4

Ductless AC has been very popular in Asia but has only started making a breakthrough in North America (likely due to the fact that everyone with ducted furnace heating wouldn't need one).

The AC unit sits outside the house (mine is mounted against an exterior wall) and you can have 1 to 4 independently controlled zones. The wall units are controlled via remotes. The coolant and water (from condensation) runs through a small pipes and if you're smart with picking the right locations you may not need to run these pipes very far in the house.

Look in brands like LG and Sanyo. They've been used for decades in Asia.

Tara_2

Analysis from Boiler Specialist

The Boiler Specialist said that what I have is a steam system. And yes, to answer a previous question, the boiler did freeze and bust, in more than one place! Anyway, because I have a steam system with five inch pipes I would have to rip them ALL out and replace them with two inch hot water pipes. Not to mention purchasing the whole new boiler because mine was never converted....no pumps. Does this jive with anyone?

tim smith

Cracked boiler

1st, is it a definite that you want/need air conditioning. If so, this is probably one of the instances where replacing the steam system with an air system may be more prudent:( I hate saying that, but a dead boiler, is steam and customer would like to finish off basement and old steam pipes are in way and covered in asbestos. In an ideal world, with all that said. I would love to see system converted to water if rads are dual use and repiped and then add separate a/c. Probably too much money to justify for most people. I don't think she can stay with steam if she really wants to finish basement. JMHO, Tim

Scott Lind_5

Old Steam System

Hi Tara,

I'm not a heating pro, just a homeowner, but thought I would throw my ten cents in for what it is worth. We are also restoring a large 3 story victorian home, in our case, in Wisconsin. It had cast iron radiators with a hot water system. We moved the home (in pieces) so had the opportunity to do whatever we wanted with the HVAC system. We also had asbetos insulation on the pipes.

We chose to keep the cast iron radiators everywhere except the bathrooms and the kitchen. We had the entire system re-piped using PEX tubing, The radiators were removed, sandblasted and painted and then reinstalled. The bathrooms and kitchen are now heated using pex tubing and heat transfer plates under the floor.

The radiators each have a "thermostat" installed on them known as a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) which gives us individual temperature control in every room. This allows for continuous circulation of the water and there are no ticking noises in the pipes or radiators except for about 30 seconds on the coldest mornings when the night setback comes off.

We have lived with the new system for 9 months (including a week of low temps in the -20 deg F range) now and I wouldn't change a thing about it. The cast iron radiators look beautiful in the old house and are comfortably warm but not hot. The system is SILENT and clean and provides incredible comfort.

I would urge you to use the warm weather to your advantage and take a month to do a lot of reasearch before jumping into making changes. The contractors on this site may not be close enough to actually do the work for you but they certainly can provide excellent guidance if they have enough information.

I look at it this way, no matter what you do with the system you are going to spend a lot of money, I promise you that if you keep a radiant heating system you will never regret that decision!

As for the AC part of the HVAC (Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning) equation we used a seperate system known as a high-velocity AC system. There are at least two brands out there with some folks prefering one and some the other. We chose the UNICO brand. Either of the systems allows you to run small diameter insulated ducts to the room in your house to provide cooling. This means that if you aren't tearing out walls and ceilings anyway you have a better chance of making that system fit without having to do that demolition. In our case, because we dismantled the house we had unfettered access to the whole house but we still elected to go with the UNICO system for two reasons: 1. The systems claim to provide better dehumidification and 2. We avoided cutting lots of ugly holes in floor or baseboards for grills. You still need a return grill but you avoid a lot of sheetmetal.

Our system is installed except for the outdoor units which we held off buying to save money. We will probably install them this summer. So I have no operating experience to share on the AC side.

Good luck with your house project!

SL

Unknown

well put, SL

Very well put,SL.... Suppose Tara's radaitors are not top nipples connected?
Then we'll help her out no matter what.
If the steam boiler been frozed and cracked, since its steam and the chance are that radaitors are still good... Can you post pictures of the radaitors and system? 5" main sounds awfully big for this home...

Tara_2

Thank you for your story. At the current time have limited funds to play with and both estimates on forced air have been in the 20,000+ range. That is with us doing all of the tearing out! I don't want to put a large sum of money into the house because I don't plan to live in it long term (about 5 years), it would be different if I did. I got the house for next to nothing and realize that most of what I will be putting in it is my time. That I don't mind. I like this kind of stuff. Anyway, for this house we are talking electic, plumbing, HVAC, water heater, kitchen & bathroom that has to be done right away and I have about 50K to play with. It's killin me. I will take some pictures after work and post them on here so you guys can tell me what you think.

D107

Good advice from Scott

Hi, another HO here. Tara if you let people know the Indiana city you live nearest to and send a bunch of photos of the boiler and piping--borrow a friend's digital camera if you don't have one--that will help immensely.

The asbestos can be removed or might be eligible to be wrapped and left on the pipes. The old boiler may have friable asbestos on the outside and possibly asbestos panels on the inside which will become visible only when boiler is dismantled. If you can get an asbestos removal company to remove boiler and all the old asbestos that may be your best bet and may not be that costly.

Scott's advice to take your time to research things is very wise. You can check out various companies, and by doing research and asking good questions you'll let contractors know you're informed and you're much less likely to get ripped off. You can let them know you're consulting with some top heating people.

If you find a good contractor locally, hopefully he'll be willing to work in consultation with one of the people from the wall--there's a dedicated 'steam brigade' here with centuries of experience between them. If a local contractor has an ego problem with this, then he's not for you.

If you have any $$ for insulation that may be helpful as it might reduce the required boiler size and increase your comfort tremendously.

Perhaps some schools or other facilities in your area have steam systems that are served by reputable commercial companies who might be able to help you. I also highly recommend steam books by this site's leader Dan Holohan.

We look forward to hearing this story unfold.......

Good luck,

David

Steamhead (in transit)

Tara, now that we know it's steam

we also know that the radiators are probably OK, as is most of the piping. The reason for this is that when a steam system shuts off, all the pipes drain dry except for the wet (low on the wall or floor) returns and the boiler itself.

I would NOT try to convert this to hot-water. There sre several reasons for this, probably the most important is that hot-water runs at over 10 times the pressure of steam. If there are any weak points, the increased pressure will turn them into leaks. I've seen systems where this happened, it ain't pretty.

Also, the same radiator when used with hot-water will emit only 62% as much heat as it will with steam. So the radiators may not heat the house properly if converted.

Our company does not recommend this type of conversion, will not perform such a conversion and will not touch a system that someone else has converted.

A new, properly installed steam boiler would be your best bet here, along with a mini-duct A/C system. Forced-air heat will never be as comfortable or as efficient as a properly operating steam system.

How about taking some pics of the boiler and system, and posting them here? We can tell you a bit more by seeing it.

"Steamhead"

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Bernie Riddle_2

Tara. If indeed you find yourself compelled to go with a scorched/hydro air system,leave the old beauties in place and paint them aesthetically, will save you alot $$$ and maybe some day some future "deadman" will take title to that old home and restore those castings to their former glory
Fred

ttekushan_3

what Steamhead said and...

I agree with steamhead. Bear in mind also that most early steam radiators were for steam ONLY. The early steam radiators do not have an interconnection between sections across the top of the radiator, only the bottom. This design allows for unfettered convection currents out through the top of the radiator.

Early steam radiators (if that is the style you have) will NOT work for hot water as they can not be bled of air.

As noted elsewhere, and by Steamhead specifically, a steam system drains into the boiler and low piping. A frozen steam system confines the problem to accessible areas of the system; frozen hot water systems are not nearly so forgiving.

A knowledgeable steam tech can dial in the system. Every steam system removal and conversion is fraught with regrets, both in comfort and fuel usage. Once the damage is done, its done forever.

-Terry

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Tara: I hope you're not suffering from information overload and varying opinions. Do note however that nobody has suggested removing the radiators other than as a complete last resort.

Do your utmost to find a good steam man somewhere nearby. Believe me, there are still some things almost anyone in your position can to do reduce the contractor's labor and save some $$.

I'd really suggest you buy "So We've Got Steam Heat" available here and authored by the owner of this site. For FAR more depth, order "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" as well.

Tombig_2

Saving Old Steam

Tara, Mike T made a great point. Don't be intimidated by information overload. You've got some time before the heating season begins. Take your time on this decision.

A frozen hot water system is devastating because all the piping and radiators are always filled with water. A freeze cracks upstairs pipes, radiators...everything. Since your system is steam, it's empty of water except in the basement where the "tea kettle" resides. The freeze might have burst some pipes in the basement where liquid water resides...about waist high in the basement. So you need a new boiler and near piping....big deal!!

All the other piping and radiators should be tight and leak free, unless some piping anomoly left some standing water to freeze and crack something.

IF the radiators are not architecturally unattractive or obtrusive, (face it guys, sometimes they are) AND you want really comfortable, quiet, and economical heat, have someone test the house piping and radiators for tightness and consider a new steam boiler. Comfort and econo wise you won't regret it.

We have no idea how big your house is. Air conditioning installation cost will be above and beyond getting the steam system up and running. Typically it will cost more to fix a steam and add air but remember, the estimate you recieved didn't include demolition or patching. Multiply the number of holes in the hardwood floor to be patched by the number of radiators. Exposed piping through or outside of walls that needs to be removed/patched.

Cooling a house with high velocity ductwork is relatively unintrusive and easy compared with cooling AND heating with a duct system. I could expound on this for pages. Bottom line...it's a hell of a lot easier to cool only than to heat/cool with some degree of comfort on the heating end.

This is very important!! I'm sure this old house has some architectural details that you want to keep undisturbed. I'm also sure that kitchens and baths are going to undergo some extensive renovation. Electrical and plumbing upgrades dictates that kitchens and baths might be tore out to the framing and rebuilt. Dining rooms, bedrooms, living rooms, etc. might not need as much demolition except for very important added insulation.

A savvy and conciensious(sp?) HVAC contractor will address the heating and cooling needs within the scope of other proposed work and keep his work within that scope to the best of his ability while keeping the comfort issue at the fore. This will reduce the amount of demo/patch in the rooms you initially think there will be "no work". Remember, if you condemn a heating system ALL rooms are reworked.

Since you have a "five year" plan all my ramblings might fall on deaf ears. Dollars and cents don't always equal common sense. That being said...I could probably save your steam system and add AC cheaper or near the same than it would cost you to nix the radiators with the demolition and patch costs included.

Good luck, it's tougher than it seems,

TG

Uni R_3

Look into hot water if you're on gas...

Tara, as someone who never loved the smell of steam rad vents, I'd take a careful look at the feasibility of converting to a forced hot water system if you have natural gas available and you aren't too rural.

With all due respect to the steam pros and advocates much of your piping is now suspect. If your rads could handle hot water and you're on natural gas, then my completely non-professional opinion would be to replace all of your piping with a product called Pex-AL-Pex. This looks like plastic but has a bendable middle metal layer. Only two ½" connections for any normal rad. Make sure the termination is done in something nicer or it will look crude. Maybe brass threaded pipes connecting to the Pex-Al-Pex below the floor...

All of these small pipes would lead back to a manifold. This manifold would allow better control for each circuit as well as give you the opportunity or isolating any branch in case of renos requiring it to be shut off or whatever. This manifold could also feed circuits run with the special tubing snapped into aluminum plates that screw to the bottom of your floor. These could be designed to run the same lower temps as your rads "average" out to.

That's the thing, feeding hot water to the manifold you could have something like a Utica 95, Viessmann Vitodens or Triangle-Tube Prestige modulating condensing boiler directly feeding the manifold. These small boilers would all feed the rads with warm water instead of steam. The temperature of the rads would vary opposite the outside temperature. You wouldn't normally know if the boiler is on or off during the heating season. These boilers do the absolute minimum to maintain internal temps.

On the savings side, you should be seeing about a 20-35% savings in fuel. These boilers have far more venting options and don't suffer major standby flue losses like you would from any chimney. They have greatly added value when you use an indirect fired tank as the water heater - it doesn't get any more efficient than that for heating water - not even a tankless is close. These boilers extract nearly every bit of heat they get from their fuel.

Lots more plus and minuses. They won't last as long and they're possibly not as reliable. They need to have their waste water treated before it goes in a drain but that's simple. The pump will cost you maybe $50 more a year in electrical.

The biggest plus in your case may be that it possibly could be a $20K job (although I doubt this would include any underfloor platework) and add great value to your home whether or not you choose to sell it.

Either way, keep the rads and consider TRVs, but do check to see if they would be reliable enough to use in a hot water system. Don't worry about the 62% number. They probably would be at a far far lower number than that the majority of the heating season. That's where they'd stay for any particular outdoor temperature and at those lesser temperatures you would have some very impressive savings.

Steamhead (in transit)

\"20-35% savings in fuel\"?

We've been able to achieve this for some of our customers, by fixing the steam system and without the risks and high costs of trying to convert it. Go here for an example:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=29563&mc=59

Regarding heat output: A radiator on a steam system can emit 240 BTU per hour per square foot of radiation. On a hot-water system, assuming supply water at 180 degrees and return water at 160 (20 degree drop) the same radiator will emit 150 BTU per hour per square foot.... 62% of 240.

If we want the radiator to approach its steam output while using hot-water, we have to jack the water temperature up to 215 degrees (source: Hydronic Rating Handbook). This is way above the temperature (140 degrees or lower) at which condensing boilers can run at their best efficiencies. Above this temperature, they are no more efficient than standard boilers.

There is also far less water in a steam system to be heated.

Converting isn't worth it. Fixing your steam system will give you the most bang for your buck.



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tim smith

regarding removal

Steamhead, I agree a great steam system is hard to beat but because of the wish to finish basement and to get more head height, it only makes sense to change to something else. Water system and air would be ideal but sometimes the $ amount dictates a single system albeit scorched air. Sorry to say this as I am a steam/water heat lover at heart. JMHO, Tim

Steamhead (in transit)

The usual ductwork

takes up at least as much space as piping, if not more. I've seen plenty of examples of this and bumped my head on them too. Also, on average, ductwork loses about 20% of what is blown into it.

For an interesting though not entirely scientific comparison of steam vs. air in similar homes, go here:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=25079&mc=8

A hot-water loop off the steam boiler can heat the basement and drive an indirect water heater as well. The Burnham Mega-Steam and Smith 8 series boilers, among others, have tappings just for this purpose.

Advantage: Steam.



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Uni R_3

20-35% better than a new gas-fired steam boiler

Those rads would probably spend the vast majority of the heating season between 110 and 130°F - that's where the saving come from - 120°F exhaust.

Anyway, if she has oil this is a non-topic...