Solar assistance please (GrandPAH)

PJO_5

NJ Stuff: they are pretty good...
http://www.njcep.com/html/2_incent.html

More stuff: this is finanical mostly - surrounding states
http://www.trfund.com/index.html

Federal: http://www.seia.org/getpdf.php?iid=21

I had something on Pa but can't find it. I buy wind energy from PECO (Phila Electric) for an additional $20.00/month and it supplies about 80% of my electric bill. I was going to get a 5kW set of PV panels, but the incentive program though the Energy Co-op went under (the fed one is still there I think)...I would have spent $19k for a $42k system, and it would have been net metered. I believe they would have paid me about 3/4 the rate for buying back my excess.

Take care, PJO

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Rules, Regs & Begs

OK my friends, I have a favor to ask. I need your input. I have landed an opportunity to bend the ear of a PA State Legislator who is writing an alternative energy bill.

Wish list time! A "what's in your wallet" kind of asking. What incentives does your state offer for solar, wind, etc? What incentives would you want? Do you know of anyone in particular I might contact to get info regarding already-in-place incentives?

[Deleted User]

DsireUSA.org

http://dsireusa.org/library/includes/map2.cfm?state=CO&currentpageid=1

Good on you for doing the right thing. I hope you don't get easily frustrated...

ME

CC.Rob_4

dsire

Although I haven't checked in some months, the last time I did the dsire site ME mentions was quite current, at least for Mass. The home page is http://www.dsireusa.org/

Maybe pick through that, select the best, then add a bit of cushion for later compromise if the bill actually makes it to the floor.

Reminds me of my first trip to the Capitol in Harrisburg to watch a floor presentation of a solid waste bill. Now THAT was a while ago....

Good luck!

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

DSIRE

Was on my short list as I've had them bookmarked for years.

What I haven't seen to date, is anything that can boost the very poor rates electric utilities pay for grid-connected PV energy. Our local electric co charges .092-cents per kWh, but buys back PV for less than .02-cents per kWh. Hardly an incentive!

jp_2

equal electric costs

if the power company charges you .10/Kwh, you should be able to charge them the same if you are making excess power. they don't like that but makes for a much simplier process.

i think though the greatest payback is to promoto conservation, or regs on more efficient appliances, frigs etc.

Paul Fredricks_3

I was told by one of my customers here in CT that the electric co buys back at .04/kw. He said that's because that's what they buy it for off the grid. I guess everything else is overhead and distribution?

jp_2

splitting power loads

i think your best bet is to keep your heavy loads on the grid, welders,frig,washers etc and then PV light loads lights & small stuff. forget about tiing the PV's to the grid, its expensive and theres no pay back.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

O&P

I agree that the utility is entitled to buy power back for less than they charge for that very reason. Infrastructure costs $$$ to maintain. So, I'm trying to look outside that box by allowing consumers who want 'green' energy the option to purchase PV-generated power. Ideally, the consumer would get the power at the same cost and the owner of the PV system would get the paltry sum the utility is willing to pay, the state would kick in a small percentage and the customer rate (less fees req'd for managing) would then supliment the remainder paid so that, in the end, it would create a nice incentive for installing PV systems.

I was hoping to get feedback regarding what's done from the contractor/consumer perspective & what is is/not working well.

Uni R_2

Ontario - PV

Ontario pays $0.42/kWh for PV generated electricity through the "Standard Offer Program" (in case you want to search on it), but there are hoops to jump through to qualify and nobody will get rich off of it at this rate.

You have to pay for a dedicated phone line and there's $30 a month gone to the other monopoly. That along with a special and fairly expensive meter and you have your own power company selling for $0.42 and buying it for your own use at $0.101/kWh for residential usage.

The other option is netting kWh for kWh but you can only net it down to a zero billing with limited ability to carry a credit forward.

http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/sop/

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I have no idea if any of this is in use anywhere, but here's some possibilities:

1) Eliminate or reduce the state's portion of sales tax for the strictly "alternative" devices used in systems.

2) Establish a standardized rating system for "alternatives" based on their actual life-cycle energy savings. (Don't forget that some alternative systems are little more than "feel-good" things that will never return the energy required to produce them in the first place.) The greater the life-cycle savings, the greater any state incentives such as income tax credits, accelerated depreciation, etc.

3) Develop guidelines and specificiations for essentially pre-engineered systems designed for the highest possible life-cycle energy savings. Not only will this aid consumers in choosing, but it will aid installers in producing systems with maximum usefulness. Provide and routinely update lists of available components that meet the specifications for each system.

Uni R_2

Not to nit-pick, but...

"I agree that the utility is entitled to buy power back for less than they charge for that very reason. Infrastructure costs $$$ to maintain."

It's not that simple.

They charge an average price for power, power from a set 24 hour per day capacity. If PV can help offset peak loads, it's worth much more than the average price. Check out what utilities have to pay when they have to buy power to cover a peak period from another utility.

Paul Fredricks_3

OK

Yeah, but then they'd have to buy PV power at a different rate depending on demand. In theory, if the PV is offsetting demand during peak times, then they don't have to pay more for peak power because they are meeting demand. If they aren't buying high demand electricity, they are then still paying the regular rate off the grid which means that PV generation would get the $, as they do now.

I think?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

completely agree!

No argument - from my perspective. But, as ME noted, there's going to be a high frustration level in this arduous process and if I'm permitted to get a toe-hold in helping to shape this bill, I don't want to get said toes cut off. So...... Looking for a smooth way to get $$$ flowing in the right direction.

Lots of arguments to be made for why the electric utility would be worlds-away better off to grant tasty incentives for grid-connected PV. But they're not currently willing to acknowledge the benefits they'd receive and I'm not looking to start off in a head-knocking contest with the thickest, largest and hardest head in the mix. I'd sooner get PA positioned to get in the solar game and move renewable energy forward - one step at a time.

The other thing I'd like to see avoided: Guerrilla Solar. One local fellow got caught because his meter reading showed the utility owing him money. Seems he got a bit overzealous & covered the whole roof! The problem with Guerrilla Solar is that back-feeding the pole-mounted transformer can get utility workers killed. Aside from the safety issue, there's something about spinning the meter backwards that has a very strong appeal(G).

Also – there’s no inspections taking place, no certifications and no licensing. Anyone can be an electrician!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Pathetic Missouri

These things actually pass for some sort of alternative energy plan.

Missouri is one of very few states where electric providers do not buy back power produced via alternative sources. The University next to me (Southeast Missouri State) has their own electric generation plant, but even they cannot sell any excess capacity to the utility provider. Since they're connected to the utility company grid for backup/peak demand the utility might even be getting their excess production for free...

To my knowledge, Missouri offers absolutely nothing in the way of alternative energy incentives at the consumer level--everything is directed to the producers.

Corn-based ethanol plants are sprouting like weeds. The farmers are happy as corn prices are skyrocketing. Large investors (often "cooperative" groups of wealthy farmers) are happy with all the subsidies and tax incentives they're receiving. Average consumers however are likely to ever see any benefit and if there is any truth to what the skeptics are saying, we're in for some really foul-smelling air--particularly in the summer when our atmosphere goes nearly stagnant for days.

Meanwhile Missouri's largest electric provider (Ameren) is truly crooked. Their desire for profit at any cost resulted in the collapse of a mountain-top reservoir and devastation of one of our most beautiful state parks. The reservoir was filled each night when demand was low and produced hydroelectric energy each day when demand was high. The company knew that the pressure sensors at the bottom of the reservoir were defective and they raised the water level sensors at the top so high that many believe the unattended reservoir was overfilling each night. By the time inspectors arrived, all of the level sensors were found in a bucket at the bottom of the devasted reservoir. Our attorney general originally pledged to file criminal charges--then he received a large political donation from Ameren and now claims that "he can't find anyone to charge."

At least he did throw out their recent rate increase approved by the Missouri Public Service Commission claiming it invalid because part of the rate increase was to offset lowered profit caused by the loss of the reservoir.

Enough about screwy Missouri energy politics--I hope you wind up with something MUCH better in Pennsylvania!!!

Metro Man

solar thermal-pv

Your best bang for your buck to still solar thermal. PV in comparison is still inefficient and expensive compared to heating water and a home with solar thermal.

What I would like to see are rebates to builders who at least pre-plumb or pre-wire for solar. This should be a code issue making mandatory that to fall into a "green" rebate category XYZ % efficiency is maintained, house is well insulated, low load appliances, etc... and solar ready. EZ and cheap to do. If the client upon building a home opts for the solar thermal or pv "package" it is already built in.

What gets costly and difficult in a retrofit is snaking the plumbing or electrical through the house.

My 2c

BTW where in PA are you?

MetroMan

Uni R_2

Some jurisdictions already do...

As I mentioned above, in Ontario, the power authority is willing to pay a 300+% premium for PV ($0.42 vs $0.101). This is green power well matched to peak summer loads without any capital expenditure requirements on the part of the utilities.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

located

in sunny York, PA. My solar cooker arrived yesterday(G).

Metro Man

New Ken

> in sunny York, PA. My solar cooker arrived

> yesterday(G).



Metro Man

Metro Man

New Ken

I'm from New Kensington, PA originally. Been to York a hundred years ago for a college "outing". Miss the people not the weather....... spoiled in Colorado.

Those solar cookers really -- cook! Did you get the one that has the thermometer built in?

Back to your job at hand...... do you have any working systems that you could field visit with your policy makers? I have found this to be an excellent way of introducing solar to prospective clients or ??

Nothing like touchy-feel to get the ball rolling.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

not many available locally

I've offered my own thermal solar for examination and will do so with our PV once it's installed too. When I can afford the additional monitoring equipment, I'll get things on-line for data-logging and monitoring 'live'.

No thermometer. It's a large glass bowl & lid with a black enameled insert that's surrounded by angled highly reflective light-weight metal that's hinged together where each section joins. I saw them at The World Solar Congress in 05. Widely used in third world countries and profits from sales are touted as being used to give units to those in need.

I'm also looking for a cast-away large dish antenna(G). There's gotta be a graveyard of them somewhere. Nice concentrator with the sweet spot already located. Hook up a tracking motor & ...... My family is teetering on the edge of having me put away!

bobbyg_2

Would you do us a favor and keep us posted on your results with the solar cooker? If you want to invite us over after perfecting its use, that would be fine too!

I have been very curious about them ever since seeing Ed Bagley Jr. use them on his show. His results weren't really mentioned too much.

I am really curious about your results GrandPAH. Thanks and good eating!

Metro Man

solar fever

I know what you mean. I have and old tracking parabolic dish that I want to make a hot dog cooker out of. Will use dc motor w/small pv panel. Guys think I'm nuts till they ask for a mystery tube.

What do you have in the way of solar thermal?

What's the plan for the pv?

Not tryin to plug co. but our site has some cool pics of installs.
www.metro-solar.com

Steelers or Eagles?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

solar in place

Is a Viessmann 30-vacuum tube array with a 120-gallon storage tank. Working very nicely.

PV: Our old 3" steel basketball pole looks to me like a nice spot for a four-cell PV array(G). And, now that the offending trees that previously cast showdows on our roof are gone, I've got lots of solar real estate up for grabs.

Don't care. I'll catch up at the SB game.

Metro Man

back-up

R u backing up or is this solar only?

Just inherited a 120 dual coil. Looking for a place to hook up. Have been concerned with mixing water temps in one tank so now I can see for myself.

BP has a nice facility in MD that I want to check out next time I'm in town. Used to be old solarex. Huge PV array.

PV systems don't like shade..... thermal is much more forgiving.

Larry Weingarten

There is...

... a term "avoided cost". That is what the utility should pay you to feed power back into the grid. It actually is higher than going rate as it factors in the new power plants that don't have to get built when there are lots of small power producers.

You might look around at www.homepower.com

Yours, Larry

Mi39ke

Dave,

Check with Dale of MG&E who once upon a time contributed to this site (probably still does). His utility seems to be paying back big time for PV systems in the upcoming years (Madison, Wisconsin area).

One PV installer I spoke with thought he was far too busy now, but figured he would not have time for anything once Dale's crew brought forth its program. I think they are paying back double the current electric rate...but my mind is rabid with foaming hydronics, get the facts right from the source, please. All best to you and yours,

Michael Ward

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

state tax incentives

why not model them after the 30% fed renewable energy tax credits? I think Mass. has a 15% tax credit modeled after the federal tax credits, they already did the legwork. I think I'm going to talk to the local city council Tues. about some tax credits and other incentives for renewable. Keep up the good work Dave, Bob Gagnon

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jp_2

thats what worries me dave

with hundreds or thousands of grid tied PV's it only takes one eqipment failure or improperly wired systems....... how would you find the back feeding system that injured a linemen?

couple bad accidents and PV grid tied systems will come to an end.

I'm not a fan of this type of system. keep the PVs off grid.
let the power company control the power, people control their usage.

this reminds me of 'feel good' ledgislation, sounds good, but not the right solution.

hot_rod

search the back issue archive at www.solartoday.org

usually every month they have an article on various programs.

Some of the European countries have interesting programs also. You may find a different angle if you research some of the programs in the top solar installation countries.

Good for you for making a reach from that direction. Should lead to some interesting articles if nothing else

hot rod

hot rod

GREG LAUER

stop the madness

I was just at a cogeneration seminar the speakers there said that the projected increase for generation is 11 to 15 cents! so much for deregulation saving us money? rendell will cause this to be more with his green laws and the proposed bill states nothing of reliable power. solar cost 3 times as much as gas or coal it install per mkw and power companies are going to be forced to add green plants to their portfolios and at whos cost thats right your and mine. Smart meters are another fairy tale who will pay for the communications network? you guessed it you and i. the govenor thinks that if you know what the hourly yes hourly rate that you will be charged by goes up, you will turn your a/c off between 12 and 7 pm not 7pm to 12am.most homes in pa were built before 1960 and new washers dryers and other energy efficent products wont save as much as new windows and good old fashon insulation. If you want Ican give you the name of the speaker that brought this to light for us. let the power solutions to those who know power not to the fat cats that only care about lining their pockets and re elections. they all have forgotten where they came from and that their seats once were a volantary no pay job. I could go on but i think you may be depressed enough save your money 2010 the rate caps are gone for our area dave.

Larry C_9

Grid Tied Inverters

I believe that the curent generation of inverters now have the circuitry to determine if the Utility power is no longer present. If that happens, the inverter automatically stops powering the grid.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Gov Rendell

Greg,

From what I've been reading over the past several weeks, Rendell is the root cause for the lack of incentives in PA. A fish rots from the head down as they say, but he's also shown pretty good leadership in other areas, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope his position was the result of bad intel fed to him. Maybe we'll get to bend his ear too. It's worth a try IMHO.

Thanks to all who have offered suggestions. I've got until the 21st to formulate a set of plans to give our local State Representative. I've no idea if he'll incorporate any of it into his bill, but nothing ventured = nothing gained! If they'll have me, I'm willing to speak to the assembly to give them a contractor's perspective.

The Wire Nut

There is also plenty of FUD out there...

... as others have noted, grid-intertie systems are usually required to island the minute the grid goes down. Can you show me any statistics of linemen killed by utility oversights/accidents vs. solar systems? There is a reason the linemen use hot sticks and voltage detectors.

tim smith

PV rates etc

I just talked to a PV contractor yesterday about this to give better info to clients. He say's here in Washington they pay .20/kwh returned to grid plus you get the benefit of backspin on meter! I was surprised. It still would be a hard one to justify here due to amount of cloud cover yearly but makes it alot more palatable. Just my .02 worth. Tim

Joe Annon_2

New Mexico Tax credits

There is currently a 30% credit in here with a $9K cap. Starting in July there will be no state sales tax on some alternative energy systems. I will look for the links to the state office tomorrow and contact information for the administrator of the program for the state.

Joe

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Solar Barbeque

Dave,

I have a linear parabolic solar hot dog cooker that has been the "focus" of my annual solar barbeque since 1979. Let me know if you'd like to borrow it.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

BSA Camporee

There's a very good possibility I'll be allowed to set up and have an interactive solar display at the BSA fall (september) camporee where several thousand young lads will be spending several days. Lots of adult leaders, dignataries & parents too, so lots of exposure for alt energy to be had.

I was looking at parabolic cookers on-line yesterday(G). Love to borrow it, but looks like a fairly far distance. I was checking out one (URL is bookmarked at home) that looked very BSA-like with a wooden cedar frame, three rings of what looks like luan plywood (cut & glued to form a concave ring) that are covered with mylar. Niot exactly a 'glossy' finished look, but looks like a nice Troop-level project.

The trick, in my mind, will be making the solar attraction fun, interactive, educational & something they'll remember.

Suggestions welcome! If you're BSA-orientated, on-site help will be needed too(G).

It would be cool to get a windmill there too!

Joe Annon_2

New Mexico tax credits links

http://www.emnrd.state.nm.us/ecmd/ This is the link to the page where you can get information on the solar credits.
http://www.emnrd.state.nm.us/ecmd/factsheets.htm this is the page that shows some of the actual legislation.
The person who led the group that took the legislation and made the rules and regulations is Brian Johnson. I could not find his e-mail address but he is the one to talk to about how the process went.
Joe

GREG LAUER

try this

have them write this, for all of those who were lied to when the goverment said deregulation would save us money. we now apologize and will do all we can to keep rates in pa as low as possible. we will explore all avenues in alternative energy and only seek cost effective and reliable sources.

jp_2

FUD ?

I would guess constantin the they are not "usually required" but required period.

why do you want to see statistics on linemen deaths due to PV tied systems? sytems do fail, and the more are tie in, the greater the possibility of failure.

no one has come forth and praised the economics of tie-ing to the grid, best I've heard, no need for batteries.

besides, tax breaks are good for the owner, but everyone pays for that loss in revenue.