has anyone use INSULTARP???????

singh

HR,

What about the layers of insultarp? Are they most effective white side up.
If Black is up, that foam layer is now in contact with earth?

Just curious, never used it either way.

Devan

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Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

White side up???????

Or balck side up??? Mad Dog

singh

white side up.

have a good memorial day
mad dog.

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Rich Kontny_3

For reflective effect

Mad Dog,

Yes white side up, I have used "Insultarp" and the white side reflects the heat upward. Easy product to use. Acts as a vapor barrier and insulating mat. It holds staples well and is much more forgiving than styrofoam. (Does not crack)

About twice as fast to install with similar performance as styrofoam.

Rich K.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

NOT

Always a controversial subject, a single layer of bubbles has nowhere near the R value of styrofoam. Is it sufficient for radiant heat?

NO

The increased R value due to radiant reflectance is nil, because only conduction occurs between materials in direct contact. (no radiation heat transfer occurs under a slab anyway)

Dave_4

infrared light behaves a bit dirrerent..

there is a mesure of reflectivity between layers, but not enough for mad dog's project - he should be using foam or the ground is gona sink away his whole solar heat source - pity, as he is putting so much into it - the ground is an umbelivable heat sink, just ask the geothermal geeks - but better have time on you hands for the response

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Thanks Guys

Starting putting it down, and then thought...wait a second.
Makes sense (like wearing black on a sunny day)but wanted to check...should be marked on pad!
So, I left first strip down. We'll this is an experiment and I am burying sensors under areas with different and no insulations to observe heat migration and qualitiy/performance. I appreciate your concern Kal and the others, however, as I have stated several times before, I am doing this project on a tight budget, using as much material as I have lying around the shop.
Furthermore, I would have to pay more to excavate ANOTHER 2"s for the Polysty (yeah no big deal right? Look, This project is already adding up, I have to cut where I can. No R & D funding from a big corp here..........
Eatherton also, urged me toward the 2" thick Polystyrene. I have used Polysty on a few snowmelts and I have seen several snowmlelts that used INsultarp. Hate to break the news, but they BOTH melt snow. Shucks, I have seen snowmelts work with NO insulation!! I wouldn't wanna pay that bill, but the point is: Budgets are Not always unlimited and sometimes a compromise MUST be made...and it don't work out so bad! I DON'T dispute the claim that Poly has greater R-Value and that it will contain heat migration better. Perhaps this experiment will prove that, or debunk it, or where I think it will fall, somewhere in the middle. I am NOT a scientist but a conscientious installer who has good common sense: The foil layer that is used in the Insultarp is based on the space-age design of the material that has been used on space flight to keep astronauts warm. I also carry a folded up version (wallet-size) in my hunting pack. A Hunting buddy of ours was stuck "on the mountain" a few years ago in zero degree weather overnight AND his matches were wet to boot. When trying to use a flare to start a campfire almost took his head off, he remembered about the "Nasa-blanket" he had in his pack. I don;t think he was thinging about R-Value that night, But that "questionable" insulating material kept him warm all night! Even had to take it off a few times cause he was sweating. It may not be the greatest insulator but it DOES contain heat. Hey guys, much like the UFC and Mixed Martial Arts matches ultimately proves what REALLY works best in a fight, my Solar Driveway will either confirm OR deny many of our positions. I believe it will work and qite well the way I am doing it. If the insulation differences are great, then we will finally know. Other than what I am doing, I don't know of ANY other real life studies....DO YOU? ALL of what we hear is from Manufacturers claims and gus who have used it on a job. There is ONLY one way to find out....and I am going in to The Octagon to find out. Thank you ALL for your concerns, doubts, critiques...I really do take it ALL in and appreciate the input. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

I will post a pic when I get a chance

But it IS NOT JUST a single layer of bubbles:
1) Foil layer
2) Bubbles
3) 3 layers of a styrofoam blanket
It ain't as flimsy as one woulod think. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Yes, and Time is a PREMIUM here

I don't know about you guys, but I am just a nose-to-the-grind-stone father of three and business owner who REALLY doen't have the time OR the extra $$$ to do a "crazy" project like this......BUT I DID ANYWAY! Why? HOW, in good conscience could I left this driveway go down WITHOUT tubing...it went from there. I have a limited budget and even more limited time. I may be "MAD" but we will all learn copious amounts from this. The biggest reason I am doing it is for knowledge first. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Thanks Kal

Ground is a great Heat sink, we know that. Are you suggesting that the Insultarp is 100% placebo and will not stop ANY heat migration? Mad Dog
Back to the grid guys - check in later or tomorrow.

Unknown

I've used it several times...

As to which side up would work best for your application, I have no idea. Sounds like you've got it down already but one thing I've found is the 6" rolls are easier and faster to layout than the 12' rolls that you have to unfold as well as unroll. Especially when theres a few lally columns in the mix. Good luck with yor project. I'm interested in how it all works out.

Rich Kontny_3

Yes!

They have done side by side comparisons and found "Insultarp" out performed 2" of styrofoam in the same structure.Go to Insltarp and look up tech data.

hot_rod

Either side up

on hot sunny days use white up to keep the surface cool to work on. Black will get VERY hot in the bright sun. To hot to even kneel on! Black will aborb the heat blike an asphalt driveway material

Black up for cold weather instalations.

More importantly is that you are comfortable with the @ 1.65 R value it provides?

hot rod

Unknown

Better yet, check out RIMA's study, or canadian independant testing to find out that insultarp sellers are full of baloney.

Rich Kontny_3

Does?

Does styrofoam have any reflective qualities that add to it's efficiencies????

Unknown

Rich, the question to ask is "does the reflective quality add anything in insulative value in an underslab insulation situation"?

The answer to that question is "not really". This has been repeatedly verified.

Here's a fun topic for you; note the last post has links to a lot of the study on this topic:

http://www.healthyheating.com/bb2/viewtopic.php?t=615

Frankly, the reflective underslab insulation makers are capitalizing on the fact that there is a minor thermal break, and that most people aren't going to build their house twice so they don't really know the difference.

it's better than nothing. but it is NOT equivalent to 2" of rigid foam.. not even close, when installed under a slab.

Do your research.

Rich Kontny_4

Research

After spending about an hour doing my homework it seems that perimeter insulation is a must and very important. Certain soils with low water content have not the need for thick slab insulation.

Insultarp and others seem to indeed have oversold them selves. Have requested the side by side comparisons but doubt that I will see them!

In conclusion the "r" value seems to be about 1.5.

My final question is how can we spend so much time worrying about how much heat is lost downward when the application is a snow melt system?

We cannot install such a system in Wisconsin and with the looming energy crisis how long will it be before they are banned nationally?

Unknown

Umm,

I'm not really wanting to jump into the fray here but the link you provided concerns foil backed styrofoam sheeting not insultarp. I was led to believe by the manufacturer that true insultarp, which is several layers of foam and bubbles, has an R value of ~10.5. Ive used it several times now with excellent results. I choose it over rigid styrofoam for several reasons including ease of installation, being able to walk on it without damaging it, I believe it provides a better base for the concrete than foam board would (I rarely see any cracks in my concrete floors) and I'm hearing tales of carpenter ants removing said styrofoam for construction purposes of their own. I'd appreciate any links refuting that insultarp (not any other product) provides R-10.5

Unknown

now THOSE are some good questions!

hard to say. the thermal break may be enough for a snowmelt that's used 3 or 4 times a year. if you're idling... probably not.

frankly I hate snowmelt myself. driveway solar collection, now, that's something worth playing with

Unknown

it concerns a lot more than foil backed styrofoam there MPF, read again. follow the links on the last post and you'll see SEVERAL links to studies that refute that claim.

the manufacturer is lying.

see this link: http://www.insulationsolutions.com/products/insultarp/technicaldata.html

do you see an R10.5 there for insultarp, with an R10 for rigid foam?

You don't.. because it's not a real comparison.

There are times that the lower R-value is adequate. Again, it's better than nothing. But it is less than R2. Period.

Glenn Sossin_2

No reflection when buried

There is no reflection taking place with out air infront of the medium. Just think of a mirror. Those reflective cardboard panels the women use at the beach work because the sunlight can reflect off of them. Drape something over it and there is no more energy reflected. You have to look at the type of tests these companies do to determine their validity.

As far as insulatarp is concerned, white side up, black side down - my .$02 it makes no difference when its buried - no reflection of energy taking place. As far a R values, its just the trapped air, but it works because the snow melt system doesn't typically run very long.

If you have a system where you are going to use an idling function, or it may run for a extend period of time, the poly insulation will be the best choice - its got the highest R value.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

heat transfer

Mad Dog,

I appreciate how you are pushing the envelope, experimenting, sharing information, etc.

The world needs "hands on" guys like you out there learning.

However, sometimes the "theoretical guys" already have learned some of the stuff you're going to learn. So it bugs me sometimes when you carry on with your gut instincts when they conflict with proven theory.

But I love you anyway!!

hot_rod

Keep in mind with an insulated snow melt slab

the snow takes a LOOOOONG time to melt off IF the snowmelt boiler is not running. I've witnessed this first hand when some of my systems failed to start due to fickle snow sensors.

As the sun came up the neighbors melted off over the course of the day (without melt or underslab insulation).

The insulated slab didn't even start to melt.

When you insulate a slab from the earths warmth it can work against youy as well as for you to the degree of R-value you install below.

So I hope fuel prices stay low in your area

hot rod

[Deleted User]

Been there, seen that...

As I was pulling the sensors from the below slab insulation tests I did a couple of years back, as I was walking up the driveway with the IR scanner in hand, the soil next to the slab was significantly warmer than the slab. Definate effects of night sky re-radiation. THe slab surface was below freezing, and the dirt next to the slab was above freezing. This was prioir to the sun hitting the surface, and the system had not been on in over a week.

If I'm not mistaken, the maufacurers claim of such a high R value was based on tests with the material hanging in the air, not compressed underneath a concrete slab.

One major player (NOFPC) in the game has been tagged by the trade commission and told to refrain from false avertising, I suspect others will follow.

One of these days, there will be an approved industry standard for contractors to follow....

Matt, I don't realy think it matters one way or 'tother.

ME

Dave_4

Yup,,,

I looked all over that site (Insultarp) earlier and found no reference to R value. I KNOW I spoke to the mfr a few years back when I researched all this and he did say R-10.5. I'm reading again over at the other link you provided and still do not find any that specifically reference Insultarp, could you please point me to those links that do? Show me specific data that says Insultarp is lying. I'll tell you what else is interesting to me, the discussion of foil backed foam sheet for duct insulation. We have been using it for a while now. The box claims R-6 with a 1/2" space between the insulation and the duct and they provide little stick on spacers to achieve that. Now I read it probably doesn't meet IMC? Oy...

hot_rod

\"performs similar to\"

R-10 is the catch phrase these days.

How similar to??? Sort of, kinda like, a lot like, a little like

It's up to the purchaser to decide how much like R-10 is good enough for your application.

hot rod

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Once again HR......

I am aware of its "NEGLIGIBLE" or EVEN "non-existent" R-VALUE as many "FEEL"....I guess were gonna find out fer sure...heh? IN ANY CASE......THIS APPLICATION IS FOR SOLAR.....igitur: Any solar heat that is "wasted" will go in to the ground....NO FOSSIL fuels being spent here. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

If you guys paid ANY attention here.......,....

This will be SOLAR-Collection......snowmelt if I EVER FEEL like blowing energy like that. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

appreciate your honesty Kevin

and that last line will keep you in my good graces. That being said, my gut - and a lil' bit-a-brains has gotten me this far in life. Last, I see ALOT of pundits and so-called "EXPERTS" weighing in - in heavy fashion. That is fine, but can they share ANY actual datum from similar projects THEY have ACTUALLY done? Ain't seen none yet!
As with everythig in my life up until now, I am responsible for myself and what I do. No Guts...no solar glory! Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

SOLAR GLENN....NOT SNOWMELT.......

and, so what you are saying in essence is: Insultarp is Largely useless; will doing virtually nothing to stop the migration of heat; why bother using anything. I guess you guys don't sell that product. huh? Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

I guess you are a theory guy, huh?

Kevin....Mad Dog

Kevin_in_Denver_2

heat transfer & insulation theory

Yeah, a master's degree in solar thermal engineering and heat transfer. Then 25 yrs. of P.E. work.

But you're right that sometimes you have to just 'do it'.

When it comes to insultarp under driveways, things like that have been measured in lab after lab after lab. R2 will lose 5 times as much heat to the earth as R10. Period.

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

That's swell

and I already figured that and NEVER disputed it. However, does a budget mean anything here? Last, Lab after lab.....were you actually there , installing it, piping it,watching and tallying the results,??? I am, I will. If the "prevailing wisdom" and industry standards were so well established (like "pumping away" or proper venting of steam systems),would I HAVE to be experimenting here. If I am wrong, I will admit it, BUT will all the naysayers and "experts" ? Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

No it don't ...cuz that is what we usin'.......

except for the area that I will use up the 2" Poly-sty. In any case, we shall see. Mad Dog

hot_rod

I'm with ya, not agin ya

I'm looking forward to your results.

I did the exact same thing on my shop apron. Half foamboard, half InsulTarp. Sensored below the slab and 1 foot down.

I've been too cheap to run it long enough to get stable data as far as a snowmelt underslab insulation test.

As for winter solar gain, in your case... With minimal R below the slab "collector" I predict the earth, and possibly wind on some days, will suck most all of the solar gain before it can be piped into the home for any serious energy delivery.

If nothing else it could pre-heat DHW to an extent. I imagine your water supply temperatures get fairly low in winter months? I've seen water mains dip below 32F in winter in Utah. Doesn't flow so well

It's still worth the time and material costs to get a hands on answer, in your case, as it doubles as a snow-melt.

hot rod

Dave_4

First off...

This crazy website is logging me in as someone else again, this time it's "Dave Sutton"

I got my little swatch of insultarp out, the one I took notes on when I called the mfr. a few years back. The white side is better for notes. It says "R-10.5" in my handwriting and I know he didn't say, "Performs similar to". Truly, if anyone can prove with available data that Insultarp gives R-2 or less I'm dying to see it. While I'm on it again, lets take a quick look at the compression story. How much does a one square inch x 4" thick piece of concrete weigh? Not much eh, less than a pound probably? So even though the slab is massive in reality it exerts less than one psi on the insultarp. How much can one psi compress? Very little I suspect. I don't know, like I stated earlier, I've used it in a few applications now, all under heated slabs, and the results have been excellent all across the board. Success is hard to argue with.

Uni R_3

The first R

> This crazy website is logging me in as someone

> else again, this time it's "Dave Sutton"

>

> I got

> my little swatch of insultarp out, the one I took

> notes on when I called the mfr. a few years back.

> The white side is better for notes. It says

> "R-10.5" in my handwriting and I know he didn't

> say, "Performs similar to". Truly, if anyone can

> prove with available data that Insultarp gives

> R-2 or less I'm dying to see it. While I'm on it

> again, lets take a quick look at the compression

> story. How much does a one square inch x 4" thick

> piece of concrete weigh? Not much eh, less than a

> pound probably? So even though the slab is

> massive in reality it exerts less than one psi on

> the insultarp. How much can one psi compress?

> Very little I suspect. I don't know, like I

> stated earlier, I've used it in a few

> applications now, all under heated slabs, and the

> results have been excellent all across the board.

> Success is hard to argue with.

ScottMP

Hey Matt

I'd like to weigh in here with a couple of thougths.

1) Budget matters, but if the budget negates doing it right ... why do it at all.

that being said ...

We just finished a large snowmelt and we used insultarp. We've done "wet" radiant with insultarp and have yet to get a call back for "non performance".

Lots of discussion here about R-value but there seems to be alot of finger pointing with nothing to point at ? One says read the article and the next says it dos'nt mention the same porduct ?? When will WE the best installers gett he truth ??? I'd like to know !!!

Ebony and Ivory .. I was told this product came out to build temporary buildings and the white side was to reflect heat. I think HR's correct, underslab it don't matter. There's no "reflective" property in a color under a slab of concret.

Hey, I did a small snowmelt at my house and because of time retraint (re; should have planned better ) I put down bubble wrap, talk about should have knon better. Hav'nt hooked it up yet so I'll let you know. Maybe the less break on snowmelt will help better ??? I can hope

Scott

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Dave_4

Scott..

The point is I have people telling me things about one product and then showing me data on an entirely different product as proof for their argument. Noone yet has pointed me to any data that they or anybody else has that proves the product Insultarp without a doubt has less than an R-2 insulating factor. I'll be calling the factory on it today. That's how seriously I take this. You know, really, we're missing another point. Regardless of what the numbers say, the stuff works.

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

I would really appreciate if you could call and post that info

I am up to my ears this week. Thanks. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Thanks Scott - good common sense

Look, I think you know ME and How I do things....first class, nothing spared on quality, go out of my way to go the extra yard, However, This is MY house, and if anyone will suffer it is me...not some unsuspecting HO that thinks they are getting something they are NOT. As you have stated, time constraints do play in to things when you do things in YOUR house - especially when we have businessesto run. The assumption in question here is if using insultarp, is NOT "doing the right thing." Just because I don't use the best, most expensive product....does that mean the install will be inferior? I think that is a huge leap. It reminds me of Viessman guys who try to make you feel that you are doing things half-a---d if you Don't use THEIR product. I think Viessman is very well-made and warrantied, but people can't always afford THE BEST. We have done quite a few radiant jobs over the years using water heaters....is that THEE best way to do it? NO! But the people still have radiant and it works...something THEY could afford. Before Insultarp came, there foil with bubble wrap. I have seen several large snowmelts that used that stuff and it DID work. Are their fuel bills higher? Maybe...maybe not much. No One I know of did a study...I AM doing one. I used that same stuff in my own basement radiant slab and it does respond normally (similar to jobs over poly sty)and retain the heat. The Insultarp has an additional layer of foil and two additional layers of foam sheet insulation. By sight, it is a definite improvement OVER the original stuff. As I have said before, time constraints AND a Budget must be respected and taken in to account. I could have easily just have paved the driveway and been done. I didn't HAVE to do this...the wife reminds me of that everyday. As I responded to HR....THIS IS FOR SOLAR - NOT Snowmelt, so if I lose heat energy NOTHING is being burned in the process....maybe a circ that runs a little longer. Thanks for the input Scott. Mad Dog