HTP Munchkin Water Heaters fan broke?

Unknown

Rich,

The industry is so small it always amazes me when I run into old friends. I've met and re-met many here. Maybe one day we can hoist a drink or two to The Rich Pickerings!

Steve

Robert Delahunt

Munchkin 140M

Hi, I have been searching this site about Heat Transfer products munchkin boiler. And our fan disentigrated last week, friday, we had to wait till now to find out that in fact we have to purchase a new fan unit at about $465.00 for the fan and about $250.00 for our plumber to go back and forth to the supply house. This is what we were just told because the supply house is telling us that we need factory authorization for a credit. We in fact called the factory last week and they told us explicitly our plumber would take care of all the details and that in fact we are not supposed to be dealing with the factory our plumber should be dealing with the supply house and we would need our sales slip, with serial number for a credit. And in no instances a credit isuued without this, we never recived any sales slip from the supply house our plumber did and he says that because of HTP policy you shouldent need a sales slip. After reading all about this on this site and now going thru this we can see why some have written what they have written.
We called the factory and spoke with Stacie Reynolds and in fact she did lie abut this to us and we are now waiting to get some of that good factory service that so many are telling me about, but I am starting to see for myself that this is just a line to pacify us.
We are very disapointed with this unit so far as it does in fact do the error code thing every 3 weeks or so and has done this since the first it was installed! And Many have adjusted this again and again! The unit was installed last august. I guess it's growing pains but as we have noticed many factory people say do this and that but this is not our problem, this is a factory problem and I find myself resenting much of this free advice and crap that you people who sell these things burden me by. It is not my problem, it has never been my problem, and don't attempt to make it my problem. some of what we found on this site is clearly misleading and repeatedly attempts to make this boiler my problem. And on the other hand many seem willing to genuanly help but who is who? At any rate with warmer weather coming soon we will most likely send the boiler back and get a more trustworthy brand like Burnham, or this Utica brand we see advrtised here. Our plumber is Mr fred Scott of Andover MA and he dosent want to get stuck in the middle between Peabody supply sales house and the factory,he is a good plumber and we trust him and he has checked and checked again and we have no intention for the factory to send another rep again, enough is enough! thanks for listining all of those of you that work as plumbers but you others can go you know where!!!!!!! Please e-mail me At my dauters e-mail, catherine, CAT475691@hotmail.com if anyone can really help othr than some of the nonsense some, not all have written here, if such a thing is possable. We will gladly help with whatever plumbing rate you charge.

Robert O'Brien

Where

is the installer in all this?

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Brad White_9

About

eight lines up from the bottom...

And certainly not in the middle, I gather

ALH_4

Warranty process

I am no Munchkin lover, but it does sound like the installer could make this process go much more smoothly. I don't understand why he cannot produce a sales slip for the warranty. This is necessary for record keeping at the factory. If nothing else, his supply house should be able to make a copy for warranty purposes.

No, the fan should not have failed in the first place, but things happen. It sounds like the whole thing is hung up on the installer being unwilling or unable to produce a sales slip.

Paul Pollets

The warranty process

All warranty repairs, no matter what company, require the original sales invoice and the defective part, when replaced. The installing contractor should have records of the transaction to satisfy the manufacturer. If no records can be produced, expect a hassle.

Munchkin tech support and factory service is excellent in the NW. I have a feeling this was a 'cash' sale....hence no records.

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Robert O'Brien

Was

this professionally installed?I would consider this an installer issue,the installer should handle this transaction with the wholesaler.You shouldn't have to get involved at all.
There's more to this story

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WaterHeaterGuy

Warranty

If the unit was indeed purchased last August, then you are entitled to a free blower.

Without casting any stones at any anyone, if I were your contractor I would not have even bothered you with any of the cost involved. The blower would have been changed, at no cost to you, and I would have gone back to the factory for reimbursement.

What I don't understand is that if your serial number is near the 8-2006 era... this should not be an issue at all. Something smells fishy....

R. Swatton

Blower issue

Robert,
Please get in touch with me.

Rich Swatton
H.T.P.rep@comcast.net

Authorized Heat Tranfer Products Sevice Agent

Steve Ebels_3

Mr Delahunt

Fact: Munchkin did have some issues with the combustion blower fans supplied by a vendor.

Fact: I am not aware of any instances where they have not taken care of a failed fan caused by this issue.

Fact: I would think that whoever installed this boiler for you would take some ownership of the product and be a little more assertive in helping you out.

Fact: I think that a lot of fan failures are due to the burner ingesting exhaust gas which can be attributed to improper venting. Check your manual for recommended intake and exhaust piping and see if your installation matches what you see for length, slope and termination characteristics.

Fact: I don't care if you're bringing a Cadillac in to the local dealer for service. If you can't prove that it's under the warranty period, they won't spring for the fix.

Fact: If as you say the unit has been faulting out since new, I'm guessing that the fan failure you see now is related to the primary cause of your fault codes. Something else is probably amiss.

Give HTP a chance and I think they will stand behind this for you provided you can come up with some documentation of the date it was placed in service.

I wish you good luck and success in getting your problem solved.

Chris_82

To: Robert D.,,,

Pay attention to the times of the day, including mine, that people post here, you can pretty much rest assured most "real" plumbers are out working during the day and most people with a vested interest in self-promotion have a lot of time on their hands during the day.

It is unfortunate that the current state of affairs exists but I believe you are getting an education first hand and you will certainly be able to tell the players from the rest. As you will undoubtedly experience the wrath of those who earn their living by the hour as your plumber deservedly is, as those on commission, you will also discover the gauntlet as I call it that this manufacturer runs which exists solely as another source of revenue protecting his interests and his interests alone.

If you take the time to call Mr. S either one of them; Sawyer or Swatton, they will endeavor to make a poster child example of you to show on the surface they stand ready to do something, let me know please if they actually send someone a "free replacement" for your defective part without the hassles regarding something which may or may not be the domain of your installer. You can clearly see for yourself those who unduly burden the customer by requiring multiple procedures and steps, this is the gauntlet. It is similar to rebate programs so commonly offered at the time of the sale. Did you know that most rebates go unanswered? Almost 60% to 79% according to the "National Association of Manufacturers" of rebates go unclaimed, due to restrictive procedures and forgetfulness. You could take the perspective that the manufacturer could lower the price at the time of sale. Or you could take the perspective of this is a great procedure to add on revenue for sales without service, all the while appearing as responsible and providing some service. This is what is happening here. As well as the continuing insistence that a plumbing installation, sight unseen mind you, someone undoubtedly has done something wrong. This is again, cheep rhetoric, no one has the right to consistently blame (unseen) the working plumber as the root cause for factory defects. Most likely if you have pictures of the fan you can post them here, individuals with a commission sales interest won’t ask for pictures of any sorts nor did I notice anyone asking for pictures of your installation. There is a reason sales’ people don’t ask for pictures and a reason some one interested in your installation would have asked for pictures as a first step!

Don't be dissuaded by the rhetoric of a few indicating you need a receipt to get factory defects replaced. Responsible contractors and manufacturers and the vast majority out there, are and will assist you without this process that so many here justify as a requirement. I assure you, as an industry, you are dealing with the minority.

Steve Ebels_3

Time of day?

Chris, your own comment regarding "real plumbers" being out working would seem to exclude you judging from the time of your post. Rest assured there are many plumbers/mechanical contractors who find much work to do in the office at this time of the day while others in their employ may be out swinging the wrenches. Right now, I find myself looking over a set of heating and process piping plans for a mozzarella cheese manufacturing facility and checking on the Wall occasionally when my eyes begin to cross from staring at the drawing.

"Let him who is sinless cast the first stone."

Chris_82

If you gander at the first line,...

The question, more to the point, is who is protecting the trade versus those who unjustly profit from it?

Brian

Warranty

The only thing I've ever had to produce for a warranty claim was a serial #.Also,if the repair is done within the first year the labour should be covered as well,if the equipment was supplied by the plumber.

Dobber

Unknown

if I have plms

If I have problems with new boilers in warranty period... My supply house will jump into it providing the paperwork of sale, etc... Now if the installer having trouble with the "bill of sale" paper, meaning he got it from e-bay or other internet sale ? As other said, there's more to the story given....

rich pickering

?????


His story keeps changing. There is more to this story.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=132005

BTW, check the last post.

WaterHeaterGuy

Never the same story twice...

... THIS is what I deal with daily.

So his unit is just over a year... not from "last August" as he claims here.

In his profile over at HVAC-talk.com he has "West Coast" listed in his location description, and claims to live out in the sticks of Oregon. WHY THE HELL is "... Mr fred Scott of Andover MA..." selling or installing a boiler out in OR ?!?!

Then he took out the broken pieces and is trying to run the boiler with 1/2 an impeller, but is complaining that his CO detector is going off and the unit is using 4 times the amount of gas it used to.

The best gem of his post is this:

> ...our lawyer has suggested we will recive a bigger claim

> if someone dies because of this but we should probably

> do something since we know about this problem...


Is his lawyer actually suggesting doing nothing so that someone DIES because it will improve his case in small claims court?!?! Lawyers... god help us all.

WaterHeaterGuy

> ... THIS is what I deal with daily.

>

> So his

> unit is just over a year... not from August of

> last year as he claims here.

>

> In his profile

> over at HVAC-talk.com he has "West Coast" listed

> in his location description, and claims to live

> out in the sticks of OR. WHY THE HELL is "... Mr

> fred Scott of Andover MA..." selling a boiler out

> in OR ?!?!

>

> Then he took out the broken pieces

> and is trying to run the boiler with 1/2 an

> impeller, but is complaining that his CO detector

> is going off and the unit is using 4 times the

> amount of gas it used to.

>

> The best gem of his

> post is this:

>

> ...our lawyer has suggested we

> will recive a bigger claim if someone dies

> because of this but we should probably do

> something since we know about this

> problem...

>

> Is his lawyer actually suggesting

> doing nothing so that someone DIES because it

> will improve his case in small claims court?!?!

> This stuff never ceases to amaze me.

Perry_3

I hve to somewhat disagree

Steve:

If I show up with a recent model car, to any autodealership that services that brand. They honor the warrantee without questioning who or where it was purchased. In some cases they will check the milage on the odometer. But they do not require you to produce original purchase documents.

I've done this with 3 vehicles that I purchased used since the mid 1980's (in fact on the first one the dealer was the one that told me the repair was under warranty).

If the owner can produce paperwork showing that this boiler was installed such that it is within the warrantee period - then that should end all debate as to if it is still under warrantee. I note that is all I have for the Viessman boiler I installed. An invoice from the installation company on when they installed the boiler. If they were to go belly up - that does not end the warranttee.

I also note that all the warrantees I have read are from installation date - not manufacture date

I find the concept that some people are stating that the owner of the boiler is required to find the paperwork proving when the boiler was purchased - by whome and from whome - to be pattently rediculus.

I'll bet the owner can easily prove the installation date; and that is all that matters.

Perry

Steve Ebels_3

Agreed but not what I said

"Fact: I don't care if you're bringing a Cadillac in to the local dealer for service. If you can't prove that it's under the warranty period, they won't spring for the fix."

I merely claimed that there must be SOME sort of proof the product is under the warranty period.

stacie

Robert Delahunt 140M

Mr. Delahunt,
Please allow me to clarify once and for all the Munchkin blower motor warranty for you. The munchkin blower motor has a three year warranty and in fact HTP has never denied a blower motor claim with an impellar issue in the five years I have worked here. It is correct that I would direct you to your installer as all warranties are processed through the local distribution channels. Your warranty period starts from the date your unit is installed. If you can not provide proof of this, then the warranty begins on the date of manufacture.
If you installer is telling you that the blower is out of warranty, then perhaps he is misinformed. I am not sure what you feel you were lied to about. Please contact me directly @ 774-271-3150 so we can resolve this for you today. I look forward to talking to you.
Sincerely,
Stacie Reynolds-Warranty Credit Manager @ HTP

Unknown

of eastern PA?

Is this THE Rich Pickering of South East PA?

rich pickering

Not me.

> Is this THE Rich Pickering of South East PA?



Sorry no, I'm THE Rich Pickering of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, Canada.

rich pickering

Not me.

But I am THE Rich Pickering of South Central Sask.

ScottMP

some flaws in the comments Perry

You don't bring your Cadillac to a Ford dealer and expect service. So you would'nt bring a Viessmann to a Crown suppplier and expect service.

Also No One sells new cars out of the back door of the dealership, so that a warranty number and serial number are alittle more important.

If this Gentlman can't get his installer to assist him ( which is what should be happening ) then he needs some proof of ownership so that the manufacture is not sending out parts that are Not under warranty or sending out parts for a FAKE repair. This guy could be getting parts and selling them !!!

By the way.... I think this whole thread is Fake !!!

Scott

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S Ebels

Same feeling scott

A bunch of things don't add up here. Locations given, where the boiler was sold from, installer..........something stinks and it's not the Munchkin.

Perry_3

What flaws? -- the real question here.

Scott: OK I'll bit that I misunderstood what Steve Ebels had said (having combined his comments in my head with some other comments above) - but you have also misunderstood what I have said.

My exact quote above was:

"If I show up with a recent model car, to any autodealership that services that brand. They honor the warrantee without questioning who or where it was purchased."

I have never suggested that Ford would service a Caddilac. I specifically mentiones an autodealership that service the brand.

Now, if anyone was guilty of what you are sugessting it would be Steve - but I understood his message and do not believe that he was implying that a Ford dealer would service a Caddilac (or any number of other possibilites) - although a strick logic interpretation of his statements could be construed to say that.

As far as to if this guy's story add's up as several are suggesting. You may be right on that; but you may also be wrong about that.

My concern with the various post was the concept that some people had stated that a person needed to produce documentation such as the original sales slip from the supplier/wholesaler that a normal person would not have in order to get warrantee service.

While the installer should have such paperwork; warrantees are independent of the installer. Also, while the installer "should" be helping - their may be legitimate reasons why the installer is no longer in play here - like maybe their business is failing, or failed, or they have health or family problems (not to mention that perhaps they never want to see this customer again).

Now maybe this thread is a fake - or maybe we are dealing with a person who is not totally mentally with it and mixes up details - and his installer is no longer available for legitimate reasons.

As a consumer - I expect that if my installer is no longer in play (for whatever reason) that my warrantee will be honored by the boiler company and that I will not be expected to produce the installers invoices from their supplier for the job.

It appears to me that HTP has said exactly the same thing in this post - that the warranttee is independent of production of a sales slip from the boiler supplier, and that the warrantee is determined from evidence of the installation date: say a bill from the installer - which is all I have for my boiler (or some other reasonable evidence of date of install); or in absense of that from the Date of Mfr as determined from the serial number..

So what's your problem with my post and line of reasoning. I am not the one who tried to use Auto Warantees as a comparative example of why this guy might not be able to get warrantee service; and I am not one of the people who believe that the customer needs to supply more documentation that what HTP has said they require in this post.

In my opinion; the real nut to be cracked here - is that in the cases of warantee claims where the original installer is no longer in play (for whatever reason) - what is the mechanism set up to allow a consumer to process a warrantee claim - and how consumer freindly is it?

Perry

D107

Perry let's take your worst case scenario

Installer unreachable etc. As a customer, for as important an item as a boiler, I would have a copy of the contract signed paid in full, a photo of the boiler and the model and serial #s of the major components. Wouldn't this suffice? Couldn't customer give copies of documentation to a new contractor who would then deal with the manufacturer?

Some products, like a Roth tank I recently purchased, have a warranty card with serial #s etc. One goes to installer who sends to manufacturer, and one to customer for his records. If I ever had a problem I'd have a technician contact the company.

Phony thread or not, this is very educational for manufacturer, installer and customer alike. More clarity of procedure is a good thing.

Thanks,

David

WaterHeaterGuy

I'd like to play with this scenerio too

Here's the problem... as a contractor, would you want your wholesaler, factory rep or even the factory itself to circumvent you and establish a relationship directly with your customer (an end user)?

I think most would respond to this question with a resounding "NO".

My company is actually 3 of these 4 steps with different product lines. (never contractor for those wondering) I hate having to deal with end users, and would much rather deal with my customer who I have a close relationship. He is in my computer, he has an account with us, and if he owes me money I know who to talk to.

Alot of wholesale / factory reps have absolutely no way of taking a payment from an end user. No credit card machine or cash drawer. Why would they? It's not like they have to take on new customers daily or even monthly for that matter. Most have a pretty established customer base that doesn't fluctuate much.

In this thread, we have an end user who is trying to deal with the factory directly. The factory is dealing with him as they would any other customer, and the end user is not used to this kind of service. So he complains.

As a factory, should you have to budget to deal with end users? Or do you make it as tough as possible to encourage end users to go through proper distribution chains? These ARE good questions to ask.

I'm having an AC unit installed in my house next week. Lord knows I could have gotten a deal by purchasing one directly from a factory and then gotten an local guy to install it for me. I didn't do that. I'm having the local guy quote me as if I were anybody and if his work is acceptabe I will gladly pay his bill. All that being said, the very moment I don't have AC guess who I am gonna call? NOT the factory.

If after 18 months my contractor suddenly dies, and I have a warranty problem with my unit, I will find a new contractor. I might call the factory to see if they can recommend a qualified technician in my area, but I'm not going to call them and demand that they send me parts and not expect some charge for that service.

Perhaps it's 'cause I've been in this industry as long as I have that I have this attitude. Then again my father very early on taught me that there are just times to pay others do the job they are skilled to do.

Perry_3

Dan: Lets see if I've got it then


Dan: So I call up another installer to handle the warrantee claim.

Since the warrantee I believe is technically parts only (with no labor) - the new installer checks with HTP and finds that they will admit that a fan failure is probably a warrantee issue - but that their standard policy is that the installer must pay for the fan unit up front ($465 as listed above) - and submit the old one for analysis. Should the factory agree that it was a design defect - then the purchase cost of the part will be refunded (this has often been reported by many as the standard HTP policy).

New installer srcatches their head... "Say what?... thats not how I get most warranteed parts from my normal vendors"; but goes back to the customer and says: I will need $465 up front to buy the warranteed part - and I will need $$$ to install it. Why should a new installer be willing to front all this money up front, and why would the be willing to cover the labor.

The customer is left wondering why they have to pay a sizable chunk of $$$ for a warrantee repair - up front; even if their is a promise of eventual payback (assuming the factory agrees it was a legitimate warantee issue).

Keep in mind that while some vendors report good results with HTP warantee part returns others have reported poor results with HTP warantee issues. Maybee the original installer - or the new installer has had such issues with HTP before (and maybe not).

Look at it from the customer perspective. That ain't warantee coverage. They are expecting a repair promptly without any cost (especially in a case like this).

Why not just ship me the part - they say - and I'll install it (and some of them are good enough mechanics to do a good install of a replacement fan element - heck they might be a lot better than some of the "experienced" installers that get talked about on this site [see the experineced? thread]).

Certainly most of the better heating contractors would pay for the fan and install it without charging their customer who hired them to install that boiler a penny (and check out and tune the boiler in the process as a freebee).

The next question is: are they willing to do that for someone else's install that had a warantee failure? Based on a lot of past reading of threads... a number of them would not - in fact many of them steer away from such situations as they don't want to be associated with what might be a substandard install or who knows what problems. Now a few might look at the install and judge if they want to be involved (i.e - was it a good install - something they would not worry about); but I gather that is the exception and not the rule.

So tell me again how the customer gets warantee coverage if their original installer is out of play (or is not willing to service the account without requesting that the customer pay for the parts up front so they are not putting any of their money at risk)?

I propose that the chance of getting anything even close to what normal people consider warantee service is extreemly unlikely in a case like this.

Should not the Mfr have some responsibility in a case like this?

Note: I am aware that HTP specifically asked this gentlman to contact them direct to resolve the issue - and I will grant them a presumtion that that they have indeed done what needs to be done to resolve this situation.

However, it appears to me that Dan seems to think that such an Mfr approach is unreasonable to expect.

Restating what I said in a post above: The real issue is how does a person get reasonable warantee service if the original installer is not willing (or capable) of providing it? Each Mfr should have an good customer freindly answer to that question.


Perry

WaterHeaterGuy

All fair questions.

And no doubt the ultimate question comes down to what is reasonable. Or more specificly what service you are accustomed to receiving.

I guess the problem we keep hitting is where you say that the contractor believes this policy to be "unusual". In my neck of the woods it is a common practice in both the plumbing and heating industries. So to me it's normal... to you it's not. It's impossible and foolish for me to argue with anyone as to what they are or are not accustomed to.

Following the above scenerio (which happens to me all the time) Mr. Homeowner contacts the manufacturer and askes for an authorized service representative to help him on his location. The factory consults with the local rep, he in turn checks his list of guys in the zip code and suggests Bob's plumbing and heating. Bob goes out to the location personally inspects the installation and assesses the situation, grabs a blower off his truck, changes the part under warranty, charges the customer for his labor, and schedules the customer for maintenace the following year. Bob goes back to his office, fills out his paperwork and submits it for warranty.

What is Bob's incentive for doing this kind of work? Not only does he receive the opportunity to make a future customer, but he also receives prefered status with the manufacturer. Next time Bob has a problem with one of his jobs, he's got the factory and/or his rep bending over backwards to help him out. Bob's warranty claims rarely get questioned and because of this he gets his credits in a quicker than normal fashion. Bob is known as a good guy, he gets to be the "hero" to Mr. End user, and makes a buck.

This is how it works day in and day out in my office. HTP has spent a ton of time and money to create this support chain. To keep the chain not only well stocked but well educated. Sure the factory could pay a guy to blindly send out parts to people at no charge. Hell I'd be willing to bet that it might actually be cheaper to do so; however, a boiler, with all of the inherant hazards that goes along in it's proper installation and operation is better serviced by having a qualified technician on the location.

Unknown

Wow, now on what other website can you get an answer like that?

I'd suggest he do what was mentioned earlier. When he talks to Stacie he also should have them locate a QUALIFIED installer in his area and dump the one he's got. Sounds to me like he's just trying to make an end run around honoring the warrantee. The thing is, if he installed it incorrectly and that caused the failure then HE is liable for the cost of the part and nobody likes to eat a $465 part but, guess what, that's part of the game. I'm eating about the same amount right now on a job. Why? Because the part I installed 6 months ago failed and even though it wasn't through any fault of my own I want my customer to be happy. Cost me the part, 30 lbs of R-22, soldering materials, nitrogen and labor. I could probably get money from the factory for the part but it's only like $14.

For those who care, stay away from the liquid line checkvalves that screw together, use the sealed ones.

hot_rod

Why such a hard on for HTP, Perry?

What is your position in all of this? You are not an HTP trained installer, dealer, rep, and as far as i know have not visited the installation in question.

The warranty procedure as outlined by the factory is fair and very common, you may find the same should your boiler need repair someday.

The breakdown in this mess, as I see it, is the installer.

I have no problem taking care of my customers to the tune of $465.00 or whatever. Wouldn't you. Why create all this bad energy over a sum like that?

Suppose it is an installation error, then what?

Generally I get the credit before the billing ever goes through in my experience with HTP and my dealer and rep. My dealer stocks replacement parts and credits me as soon as I return the parts. His service to me includes working with the factory to get his warranty credit. He doesn't pass that task down to me. He wants my return business just as I want my customers.

Not trying to be a jerk here, Perry but I think if you were in business for your self you would see through this, and I'm sure you would do right by your customer regardless of the problem.

A warranty claim only gets to this list it seems when one of the parties is un-reasonable.

Either the installer, dealer, or rep should have been able to handle this part replacement within a 3 day period, if not the same day if the part was locally stocked.

Something just doesn't add up with this, it's a very simple problem to handle when viewed from a professional set of eyes

hot rod

Unknown

FWIW, I find it "interesting" that Mr Delahunt hasn't been back to this thread since he first posted. Makes me say, hmmmm...

Unknown

I agreed with MPF

I agreed what MPF siad, where is Mr Delahunt on this and what's the outcome? Perhaps his tv lawyer told him not to say anything.... I havnt checked the other website that he also made a claim...

Chris_82

that response to Perry,...

Hey Hot rod your response is a little hard to understand, why dosent some one post the many,many pictures of the broken fan peices and corroded boards once again and then we can have this discussion once more? About responsibility. Stop covering for HTP they can take care of themselves. And stop blaming the installers as the root cause of a defective design, sure some units get installed bacwards but your missing Perrys point.

Please someone post the many pictures of the fan units. So you have a clear picture of what we are talking about. I went thru this same crap with the entran tubing and other products well before the widespread introduction of the internet this is once again the same and untill government steps in we are all the subjects of a propaganda campiagn favoring profit motives of the few!