Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Copper thoughts???

Plumdog_2
Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
in THE MAIN WALL
I've run across galvy water lines 50-70 years old that you could still unscrew and work with; that had little internal corrosion. Other times it will break off just above the threads and seems to be full of rust. It seems that the type of thread compound used has more to do with longevity than water quality (mostly well water around here). The good stuff has an oily black thread compound that never fully hardened.

Comments

  • pipewrench_5
    pipewrench_5 Member Posts: 1
    Copper prices

    With the sky rocketing cost of copper I am curious as to how everybody is dealing with it.

    Business as usual?

    Trying / changing to new materials?

    Going back to iron, black and galvanized?

    Do you put disclaimers in quotes to cover rising costs?

    Have you changed your scrap policy?

    Any scrap conflicts with employees or customers?

    Those with pro press machines… are you sorry you bought them… or maybe very glad?

    Job site theft?

    Any other thoughts?

    Just curious.

    pipewrench
  • Maine Ken
    Maine Ken Member Posts: 531


    Thefts of copper lead to arrests
    Saturday, July 15, 2006 - Bangor Daily News To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Maine Ken
    Maine Ken Member Posts: 531


    Results of search on "copper thefts maine":

    . Copper, brass stolen from Bangor company
    Bangor Daily News; Jul 19, 2006; pg. 8
    2. Thefts of copper lead to arrests
    DIANA GRAETTINGER; Bangor Daily News; Jul 15, 2006; pg. 1
    3. News in brief PITTSFIELD: COPPER THIEVES HIT CIANBRO CORP. EQUIPMENT YARD
    SHARON KILEY MACK; Bangor Daily News; Jul 11, 2006; pg. 2
    4. Couple charged in burglaries Two held in Penobscot County Jail after interrupted break-ins
    JUDY HARRISON; Bangor Daily News; Jul 8, 2006; pg. 2
    5. Boyfriend, girlfriend charged in Hampden home burglaries
    DOUG KESSELI; Bangor Daily News; Jul 7, 2006; pg. 3
    6. Copper the prize for thieves Washington County experiences surge in theft of metal
    DIANA GRAETTINGER; Bangor Daily News; Jul 6, 2006; pg. 1
    7. Copper wire theft linked to power disruptions
    DOUG KESSELI; Bangor Daily News; May 20, 2006; pg. 1


    From June 5th USA Today:

    Where thieves have hit:

    • In Sumter, S.C., thieves stole 80 13-pound flower vases composed of 87% copper from graves in two cemeteries in April and May, says Al Cade, general manager of the Evergreen and Hillside Memorial cemeteries. Two teenagers were arrested.

    Each vase costs $150 to $400. But some were a half-century old or older and are no longer being made, meaning some families will have to pay as much as $1,500 to replace the entire grave marker.

    • Customers in Maine recently experienced power shortages after thieves stole copper wiring from at least six power substations in remote parts of the state, Maine Department of Public Safety spokesman Steve McCausland says.

    • Thieves in Oregon have hit power stations but have also stolen copper from other locations, including construction sites and small bridges. Noonan says many of the thieves are stealing the metal to get money to buy the illegal drug methamphetamine.

    "They will take wire, metal, anywhere they can get it," he says.

    With prices rising for a variety of metals, thieves are after more than copper. In Lorain, Ohio, 400 feet of aluminum bleachers were stolen from a youth sports complex on April 8.

    A local scrap yard was cited after it bought the bleachers without the proper documentation. No arrests have been made.



    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Al Letellier_9
    Al Letellier_9 Member Posts: 929
    copper

    Obviously, PEX is the answer to most jobs. I am using more and more of it lately. Only use copper where appearance is critical as PEX is much harder to maintain good appearance and straight lines, If it's hidden, it's PEX. As to junk collection, we've always used it for crew "entertainment" and it is all collected at the shop and put into the "fishing fund". A local guide is the recipient of most of the loot and we enjoy several trips every year, and a nice gathering at the holidays. No trouble yet in So. Maine to speak of, at least very little press about it. beginning to think about locks for the pipe tubes, and gas tanks on the trucks, though. Exxon Mobil should sell a line of locking gas caps.....or at least give you one each time you fill up.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Al Letellier_9
    Al Letellier_9 Member Posts: 929
    copper

    Obviously, PEX is the answer to most jobs. I am using more and more of it lately. Only use copper where appearance is critical as PEX is much harder to maintain good appearance and straight lines, If it's hidden, it's PEX. As to junk collection, we've always used it for crew "entertainment" and it is all collected at the shop and put into the "fishing fund". A local guide is the recipient of most of the loot and we enjoy several trips every year, and a nice gathering at the holidays. No trouble yet in So. Maine to speak of, at least very little press about it. beginning to think about locks for the pipe tubes, and gas tanks on the trucks, though. Exxon Mobil should sell a line of locking gas caps.....or at least give you one each time you fill up.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,980
    We've been hit twice....

    I'm sure Scott posted something about it....but we've been hit a couple times right outside our shop. My understanding was that they caught the guy, but stealing our copper was VERY low on the list of his offenses.

    Personally, that is our "bling money", and I wanted to leave a sign above it saying..." you better HOPE the cops catch you before WE do" If the police got them, they stood a chance. If WE caught them,They very well could have fallen down the stairs next to the shop....and been seriously injured before the authorities arrived.

    I've been reading more and more stories in the news about construction sites being ripped of both pipe and wire in the last few months. I think Al made a great point as pex is becoming the preferred material more and more for most jobs lately. Chris
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    I'm going to try PAP on my

    next two mod con boiler installs. I bought a bundle of Viega 1" in 20 foot straight lengths. I'll use my REMS bender to form it.

    About 1/4 the price of copper. I will use copper or black steel for pump and air purger mounting, of course.

    hot rod

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,980
    Smart...Very smart !

    Stolen, but appropriate.

    H.R. , I'm tending to lean that way myself. The prices are going through the roof for copper, and for both domestic and heat situations,I've had absolutely 0 failures with pex-al-pex so far.

    I think it's a good move. JMHO. Chris

  • Pinball
    Pinball Member Posts: 249


    Is Wirsbo, (oops Uponor) multicore approved for domestic water?
  • Brad White_102
    Brad White_102 Member Posts: 8
    Copper...

    In design we have always specified Sch. 40 steel and screwed fittings for 2" pipe and smaller, with copper an acceptable contractor option (with dielectric separation of course). Welded above 2".

    Not sure about steel prices these days but I am getting resistance to screwed steel, may be the weight, labor, what-have-you.

    We have one job on the boards now, super tight budget, and I am leaning PAP for runouts up to 1 inch size. Detailing may be an issue as would be protection. Is PAP available economically in up to 2" size and how would I tee into it? Fittings I see tend to be end terminations only.

    Anyway, that is the conundrum we are in. I will say though, public bid work is hard to put in allowances for material increases (legally impossible under Ch. 149 here in MA) so the overall bids are coming in huge, assumably to cover the prospective increases between bid and buy-out time.

    My $0.02


    Brad
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Copper

    Business as usual? Yes because I've been using copper and steel at the boiler and were necessary. The rest has been pex for the last 4 years.

    Trying / changing to new materials? Last year I switched to Wirsbo. I still use Viega.

    Going back to iron, black and galvanized? Only were necessary. Its labor intensive and I can’t find quality fittings anymore.

    Do you put disclaimers in quotes to cover rising costs? My quotes are only good good 15 days.

    Have you changed your scrap policy? Yes, we save every inch of scrap now.

    Any scrap conflicts with employees or customers? No, I'm the boss and the materials are mine.

    Those with pro press machines… are you sorry you bought them… or maybe very glad? N/A

    Job site theft? No

    Any other thoughts? I've been looking into more packaged hydronic systems, to save on labor and copper. (Example: pumping stations etc.)


    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    In history books 100 years from now............

    "Copper piping was used in plumbing and heating systems up until the early years of the 21st century.........".


    PAP and some black pipe for near boiler piping, all the rest is PAP and PEX. Copper is obsolete unless prices drop by 75%. You could probably build a whole system labor and all with threaded steel for less than the cost of copper.
  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    And, hot rod

    I'm told by the Rep that 1¼ and 1½" are on the way.

    Jed
  • Fred Campbell
    Fred Campbell Member Posts: 80
    Copper prices

    I was wondering if some plumbers might go back to screwed galvanized. Copper or galv. is code in Chicago and all near suburbs. I've always ran copper to remote manifolds but I feel the suburban inspectors are gonna give me some grief over running PAP. Most of them don't know what the heck they're looking at when they see my radiant floor systems so I might not have to bring my "A" game. After a forced air install where we put returns in every bedroom but one he said "I like to see a combustion air intake in every room". My guy just nodded his head and said OK.
    Funny!
    TG
  • Fred Campbell
    Fred Campbell Member Posts: 80
    Copper prices

    > In design we have always specified Sch. 40 steel

    > and screwed fittings for 2" pipe and smaller,

    > with copper an acceptable contractor option (with

    > dielectric separation of course). Welded above

    > 2".

    >

    > Not sure about steel prices these days but

    > I am getting resistance to screwed steel, may be

    > the weight, labor, what-have-you.

    >

    > We have one

    > job on the boards now, super tight budget, and I

    > am leaning PAP for runouts up to 1 inch size.

    > Detailing may be an issue as would be protection.

    > Is PAP available economically in up to 2" size

    > and how would I tee into it? Fittings I see tend

    > to be end terminations only.

    >

    > Anyway, that is

    > the conundrum we are in. I will say though,

    > public bid work is hard to put in allowances for

    > material increases (legally impossible under Ch.

    > 149 here in MA) so the overall bids are coming in

    > huge, assumably to cover the prospective

    > increases between bid and buy-out time.

    >

    > My

    > $0.02

    >

    > Brad



    I was wondering if some plumbers might go back to screwed galvanized. Copper or galv. is code in Chicago and all near suburbs. I've always ran copper to remote manifolds but I feel the suburban inspectors are gonna give me some grief over running PAP. Most of them don't know what the heck they're looking at when they see my radiant floor systems so I might not have to bring my "A" game.
    After a forced air install where we put returns in every bedroom but one he said "I like to see a combustion air intake in every room". My guy just nodded his head and said OK.
    Funny!
    TG
  • Fred Campbell
    Fred Campbell Member Posts: 80
    Copper prices

    I was wondering if some plumbers might go back to screwed galvanized. Copper or galv. is code in Chicago and all near suburbs. I've always ran copper to remote manifolds but I feel the suburban inspectors are gonna give me some grief over running PAP. Most of them don't know what the heck they're looking at when they see my radiant floor systems so I might not have to bring my "A" game.

    After a forced air install where we put returns in every bedroom but one he said "I like to see a combustion air intake in every room". My guy just nodded his head and said OK.

    Funny!
    TG
  • Fred Campbell
    Fred Campbell Member Posts: 80
    Copper prices

    I was wondering if some plumbers might go back to screwed galvanized. Copper or galv. is code in Chicago and all near suburbs. I've always ran copper to remote manifolds but I feel the suburban inspectors are gonna give me some grief over running PAP. Most of them don't know what the heck they're looking at when they see my radiant floor systems so I might not have to bring my "A" game.

    After a forced air install where we put returns in every bedroom but one he said "I like to see a combustion air intake in every room". My guy just nodded his head and said OK.

    Funny!

    TG
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    a few years back...

    i considered making the first PAP radiant header of my career :)

    the cost was not the issue it was the parts...fittings ... i thought after a couple hours laying all the pieces out on the wholesale warehouse floor 'well what do i do here ..., ? '

    alot... maybve if the complete line of pieces were available it would have happened....

    copper is signifigantly making a dent in the mind...box of fittings ,few sticks of 3/4 1/2 and 1" go LARGE these days...like oil i think it is not going down any time soon.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    I love to screw pipe, but does galvanized give a service life similar to copper in your area?
  • Fred Campbell
    Fred Campbell Member Posts: 80
    Galv

    In my limited plumbing experience I've seen that galv. HW lines scale up on the inside. We're talking about 50 yrs or so. Can't even see thru a 6" nipple. In Chicago the unions fought PVC drains for years. It's still only code for three stories or less and probably rightfully so.

    My work is mostly residential and I foresee a major code adjustment in domestic water delivery for new construction simply as a result of copper prices. Ten ft. of 1"M is $40 at my supplier and $30 at the big box. I will not however use pex to add a radiator or do a repair if the whole job is copper or screwed pipe. I have too much respect for the tradesmen that were there before me.

    I did a job a few years back adding a basement radiator loop to a glorious old gravity system in a mansion turned into a priests' residence. They wanted a chapel and computer room in the basement. I gave them a price for CIBB and copper fin but told them if they wanted copper fin they'd have to find someone else to do it. They went with the CI and I piped it all in black pipe with CI fittings. It cost them a bit more but they knew exactly where I was coming from. I couldn't bring myself to add a stich of copper to that system.





  • frank_25
    frank_25 Member Posts: 202
    In NYC

    .....you try using gal. on domestic, you'll be ok for maybe 10 yrs., then it's all over. But isn't the labor rate still worth more than copper? We quote considering copper usage, and have a cd updated by our friends @ D & W supplies. Our P & H crews split their "mongo" which is mixed, a barrel at a time. (Side bar) Where did that term come from? Mongo???
  • Jim Bennett
    Jim Bennett Member Posts: 607
    Copper theft

    We are experiencing a lot of this in my area. Here is a couple of photos from a customers building. This place was a federal govt. building, built in 1932. It has (had) extensive copper flashings all over the roof.

    Thieves got up there and ripped out hundreds of feet of flashings and drainage scuppers all the way around the perimeter. You can still se small sections that did not tear away! The copper ran from the scupper area down about two feet to the black roof flashing.

    I could not believe it when I inspected the area. This was very heavy gauge copper. Must have taken hours by many people to do this kind of damage!

    If these guys put that much effort into a REAL job they might make something out of themselves!!!!

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Brad White_103
    Brad White_103 Member Posts: 14
    That breaks your heart

    to see a building circa 1930's treated so shabbily. Not just the copper loss but the collateral damage from water leaks. The cost to replace -materials and labor with all of those reglets- probably exceeds the original cost in dollars of the building.

    I can only hope that the scrap dealers did more than turn a blind eye and at least ask for ID and have a sign-in ledger book.

    "Receiving Stolen Property" seems applicable; is it ever enforced?
  • Brad White_103
    Brad White_103 Member Posts: 14
    Local term?

    Just a SWAG: from "Mongrel"?

    I really do not know, just a guess.
  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    Mongo

    A term I have not heard in a long time!! Nobody knows how it originated.

    When I worked in some rehabs in brooklyn, or bronx we use to paint the copper black with spray paint. And hire a night security guard on large long term jobs.
    Did not work always.

    I once replaced perfect condition 1000' of 4" xh red brass water main with 4" L copper, what a shame, except xmas was good that year!!

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Seeing the future

    I'm posting a link to the purchasing magazine warning of another price problem with copper

    http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6358562.html?industryid=2150&nid=2863

    The highlights:


    August 2, 2006 View our updated privacy policy



    Copper prices have bounced back
    World copper prices have started the new month of August at $3.57/lb now that workers at the biggest copper mine in the world, have voted to take strike action.






    Copper-nickel merger is a mess
    Toronto-based nickel giant Inco had mapped out a future in which it would acquire...
    Read more>>

    Polypropylene producers to boost prices, again
    Polypropylene producers are trying mightily to boost U.S. transaction prices by...
    Read more>>

    Costs remain high but rate of inflation slows
    Purchasing’s Commodity Price Index (100=1992) for July showed 0.6% slippage to...
    Read more>>

This discussion has been closed.

Categories