Novice TI150 Install -advice

[Deleted User]

Jack,

Attached please find the fix to your systems design.

Note that you should maintain a minimum of 10 pipe diameters before and after any secondary tee take offs to avoid side stream turbulence creating unwanted flow through the secondary tees.

Tee spacing on secondarys should be as close as possible.

Ball valves should be full port at the tweeners.

Don't worry about all the thermometers. Use strap ons if you really MUST see whats going on.

Be sure and orient the circulators per the makers instructions.

I've seperated your secondary branches into two categories, high temp and low temp.

Whenever you have more than one pump in parallel, it MUST have a check valve on it (high or low temp).

The HXer to the garage is essentially a high temp load.

If you are concerned about the need for low temp glycol, you will need to add a 3 way mixing valve down stream of the HXer, and will obviously need a pump to move the glycol to the loads.

Orient your low water cut off and hi limit aquastat just as you have it shown (not shown on drawing).

Once you have started and purged system, remove handles from tweener ball valves and hide them under the cover of the boiler.

Got questions???

ME

Jack Waller

Novice Install TI150 help

Greetings and thanks to all on my previous question. Having only posted once before I am a little unsure as to how to approach this post. I have been reading the Wall pretty regularly since Christmas. My read seems to suggest it is better to provide more information rather than have good hearted people respond and then find there comments were off base because they misunderstood. So I will try to be concise without skipping pertinent information.

Firstly I have included a picture of a mock-up of my primary loop in case anyone notices something obviously wrong or unwise. It is a simple series loop which hopes to take advantage of progressively lower temperatures for secondary loops. The following explains how I have come to be in this somewhat frightening situation of doing my first boiler install! Keep in mind I teach electronics at a technical college (:>)

In 1980 I designed and built my own acreage home. I initially wanted hot water heating but furnaces were cheaper and easier for me to install. Solar heating ideas were just coming into vogue so I tried to take advantage as best I could, of passive ideas and good insulation - wise choice looking back! I built south facing into a hillside placing all bedrooms down in the walkout basement since it would have full sized windows. The basement got under-slab ducting and its own furnace -it has worked well.

Three years ago I decided I could not do my auto resto hobby in a “parked in” attached garage and added a 26x36 shop. Seems I made a mistake only putting perimeter insulation outside the grade beam when the pex was installed, at least that’s the general comment I hear. I am not totally convinced though - I didn’t want to loose my high mass summer (and that’s when I tend to use it most) cooling effect, and I didn’t, and it seems that since I don’t keep temps high in the floor in the winter the heating bill is not really too bad. No up down thermostat setting though!! I plan to add a small unit heater as an instantaneous boost near the primary work area but overall I am thrilled with my shop. For two years a dedicated hot water tank served the purpose but when it looked like my basement furnace was about to give up I pondered a boiler. I quickly concluded that a boiler just for the shop was not cost effective and low and behold the whole house is now being retrofitted for heating with a Trinity TI150 (already purchased). You are probably thinking just fan coils and IDWH, but here is where I really would like some advice.

When I built, I made a decision to offset my external 2x6 walls over the foundation 2" so I could wrap my 3 cement basement walls with 2" styro. I then wrapped the whole house with 1" styro, including the basement. This is one comfortable basement. When I started excavation long ago I hired a cat and since my walk-out needed a foundation below it, in ignorance I opted for a 4' wall. Well with a blade of maybe 7' or so I ended up with a great trench the length of my house (60'). So now what? Well I decided to crib and cement so as to create a huge plenum (wonderful for storing old car parts), and fortunately had the sense to put 2" styro under that plenum concrete floor (the basement floor is 4' above this).

When I got the brain wave to go hydronic heating, I was able to relate well to comments about how wonderful radiant is - based on my shop but also based on this 5'x4'x60' tunnel I have in which my furnace discharged hot air for the floor registers (a 5' strip of warm floor on the window side of the basement has been much appreciated in January in Alberta). When talking to my wholesale heating specialist and supplier I kept debating “why couldn’t I but pex in this tunnel??” I wish I could install main-floor radiant but that is much too expensive at the moment. However I am, maybe foolishly, committing myself to laying pex down on the floor of my tunnel, pouring 2" concrete over it and running a somewhat higher than normal radiant temperature to supply supplementary heat to the air flow coming from a low temp fan coil where my counter-flow furnace used to be. I was even toying with placing small air handlers (surplus ?) under the register outlets for each bedroom.

So I would love to hear suggestions if anyone is intrigued by my ideas. I have an HX for the 1" pex feed to the shop since I want to place a fan coil where it could freeze when not in use. The shop will essentially be an independent system.

Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions!

Jack in Edmonton Oiler country.

EJW

Jack

There is no picture attached and GO OILERS!

EJW

Jack Waller

TI150 picture

I tried to attach according to the form but it didn't work - help

Jack

Jack Waller

Jack Waller

TI150 picture

I'll try again

[Deleted User]

I hate to tell you this....

but the warranty is void if you install is sideways like that:-)

Oh, yeah, don't forget to use the ProPress machine on all your fittings before you fill 'er up:-)

In one spot, where you have another set of secondary tees, they're too close to the elbows, and you WILL get unwanted flows when the primary pump is running. Not sure if that's an inny or an outty, but in either case, you WILL get some induced ghost flow. I think they like to see like 7 to 10 pipe diameters away from that junk.

I always like to throw a ball valve between the secondary take off's. It make purging SO much easier, and in the off event that the secondary pump fails, they can choke the tweener ball valve and divert at least some flow through the secondary for, say the weekend...but it's your system.

I can purge the boiler room of my systems in about 5 minutes. Then I take the handles off the ball valves and hide them under the service jacket of the boiler. No one EVER looks in there :-) Only you and your help will ever know where they're at...

I'd also watchout that you don't block wiring access to critical components with your piping.

Also, where you have the two pumps in parallel for the primary loop (I assume the outsider is for DHW?) make certain you have check valves on both of the pumps working the primary or you will have a slipping clutch syndrome. The boiler gets hot, but the energy don't go out as well as it should.

Looks well thought out tho. Just to avouid cornfusion, got a drawing you'd care to share with arrows, notes and scribbles :-)

ME

[Deleted User]

PS

Welcome to the Wall. You're addicted now...

ME

Ron Schroeder

Jack

Nice looking install

Jack Waller

Trinity TI150 picture

I am wondering if the picture gives the impression that the boiler is sideways. This is a mock-up on plywood on saw horses in the garage and nothing is committed yet (no soldering) - so please point out every mistake or shortcoming. I can provide more info on the primary secondary layout once I get some idea where people are coming from with their questions.

Jack

Unknown

with or without

With or with out pictures..
G0 HURRICANES ! !

Jack Waller

Trinity Boiler pic with notes

Hi all. Not used to posting on the internet so I may be approaching things incorrectly - any advice? I have added comments to my boiler mock-up picture using Adobe (never done this before) so hopefully this will clarify a few things. This isn't really such complicated stuff but there are things only learned by experience, which I don't have, and I like to do things the right way (hopefully the first time). I didn't start with a schematic since I'm not familiar with that format. Have spent lots of time searching out all the comments and pictures I could find but nothing seems to quite fit what I have to do. All suggestions are truly appreciated.

Jack

[Deleted User]

Boink...

Raising the bar AND the flag....

ME

Jack Waller

Thanks Mark E

Thanks very much for your efforts. I will be digesting your suggestions and will have more questions, but one comes to mind right off. Are you implying that the primary pumps should be just before return to boiler? Is that for spacing in my situation? Or does it matter. During the weekend I had changed a few things so I will post the pic even though it seems more will have to change.

Jack still proudly in Edmonton Oiler Country - alas

[Deleted User]

You're welcome...

and my condolences on the loss of the Stanley Cup. Been there, done that so many times...

As for your system, yes, both pumps should be pumping towards each other and the inlet. Although somewhat confusing, look at page 15 of 38 on the PDF file located at

http://www.nythermal.com/Media/Docs/Pdfs/TrinityTi_Manual_4_5_06.pdf

These are not your grandpas boilers, and pumping away from the PONPC applies, but pumping towards the boiler is a requirement. It is done so that the boiler always see positive pressure, and it is also done because if you pipe it the way you have it laid out, it will give you problems. THe DHW pump will be the only pump running during a DHW call. During a space heat call, the DHW pump will be off. The two pumps are piped in parallel towards the boiler inlet, and the check valves are critical to the operation.

Better luck next year. At least your home team didn't drop the puck like the Av's did this year...

ME

Jack Waller

Still confused

Mark, the Trinity manual (pictorial) has the IDHW pump pumping into the tank before returning to the boiler inlet and the same for their secondary loop - its between the pump and the boiler inlet. I just noticed that I put my primary loop drain at the bottom just before the return when the manual shows it down at the bottom from the outlet side, perhaps this makes things look backward. Is this important to change? Can you double check my PDF file picture - it seems to me my pumps are placed correctly or I really am confused here.
PS I think the Oilers will resurface but what a story if they had taken the cup!

[Deleted User]

Remember, water is like my ex brother in law...

Wet, lazy and stupid.

If piped the way you have it laid out, what reason does the IDHW water have to go through the boiler? None.

It will run parallel through the primary pump, and back through the return, NOT through the boiler to pick up heat and deliver it to the IDHW tank.

Regardless of where the tank is in the IDHW loop series string, you MUST have its return between the primary pump and the boiler inlet in order to force the water through the boiler. You want 100% of the flow to go through the boiler.

Locations of secondary outlet pipes are less critical, although I would suggest you place them in a thermal order around the primary loop with the high temp loads being served before the low temp loads in relation to the heat source. Unless you are doing some sort of priority control logic in which case it doesn't matter.

Think wet , lazy and stupid. You MUST show it (the water) where YOU want it to go, not where you THINK it should WANT to go.

As for "drain" valves, they typically are placed on all low spots to facilitate draining. As for "purge" valves (same thing as a drain valve) they must be placed such that they are conducive to "purging" the system quickly and easily. This is not something that most manufacturers understand. I've placed the make up, and purge point in such a place that you can close the tweener ball valves, and fill and purge your system in short order.

I don't even pay any attention to the manufacturers purge points because they have no idea what my needs in the field are, and they rarely address them properly. Instructions usually say something like "fill heating system and remove all free air". HOW?? Tell me HOW to fill the system and remove all free air??

I do my own thang:-)

ME

Jack Waller

Final ThankU to ME

Mark, you have given me a good number of helpful pointers, so once again thanks. On the two parallel primary pumps, after looking closely with all due concern, since both have check valves and pump away from the same point, there is no way one can pump back through the other, thus bypassing the boiler (my IDHW return is down by the air intake pipe on my photo). I believe your suggestion of both pumping into the boiler is virtually the same thing except for where the pumps physically reside. Mine are close to the Xtank, which I thought desirable from my limitted reading on PONC, but I suspect you have some experience that suggests the pumps are better placed right at the boiler inlet?? Being the fuss pot that I am, I enquired of NTI and they suggest either side is OK. Please don't take this as questioning your wealth of professional experience and knowledge, it's just that I am the type who always wants to know the reasoning behind things. Thanks again.
Jack

[Deleted User]

I stand...

corrected. On second look, you are correct. It shouldn't be a problem. If the boiler starts making howling sounds however, you will want to follow my directions, pumping away from the PONPC (expansion tank connection) and TOWARDS the boiler.

Good luck, check back when you are completed, and don't forget to tip (Buy a Brick) the bartender on your way out the door:-)

ME