Chucking my steam system

Glen_5

I have one pipe steam. 10,000. sq/ft 3 story house. Old converted coal boiler. 6 gal per hr nozzles. Separate fired H/W heater (10 yrs old) with 2 gal per hr nozzles. Heat cost (oil) killing me. Was going to replace with modern steam boiler but I'd still be dealing with marginal efficiency, and old pipes in the walls. I having central a/c installed and for a small additional price, the contractor will install heat coils. Seems like I'm going for the ducts anyway, why not get a good H/W boiler, maybe with an indirect H/W heater and save the bangs, hisses and old pipes I will be dealing with even with a new boiler. My question is this: I need a boiler around 450,000 btu's or so. One contractor recommended getting 2 boilers as one could feed the hot water heater and use less btu's in the summer to do so. My regular plumber said that he would be in favor of a single boiler as the tank will be replenished faster with the higher btu rating. Any feedback on what the proper way to go would be appreciated. Ultimately, I will have 5 air handlers covering 3 floors, and 2 bathrooms with radiant in the floor.

Thanks.

Ron Schroeder

Glenn

I will bet there will be a few guys come along to nudge you along in another direction, but if your mind is made up go the two boiler route, over ninety percent of the time only one will be needed and if they control so they alternate you will be doing yourself a favor over one big boiler. When these fellow Wallies give you a nudge please give some thought to what they are saying, they are the best at what they do and will try to head you in the right direction.

Mark_46

Glen

Cant comment too much on the single or dual boiler question. But I can say I made the same decision you did regarding the steam and removed it. I added central A/C and decided to space heat through the ducts as well using hot water coils and a boiler. I also switched to an indirect domestic hot water heater at the same time.

David Sutton_6

Hello Glen

When adding ducts to the old house make sure that the ducts are properly sized to handle the cfm needed for each room , there should be a heat loss and cooling load done!! see this first. a steam system can be just as eff. the idea of two boilers instead of one makes the best sence for a dwelling that size as was mentioned ony one will be running most of the time , make sure you have out door reset and the boilers will swich back and forth as to running.

steam heat is going to be more even , you will have much bigger temp swings with the warm air, make sure the ducts are sealed to reduce loss thru the ducts.
try the find a pro on this site....David

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Maine Doug_38

Two Boilers

I have 2 boilers in my building (commercial/residential). The sum of the 2 boilers is about half the steamer size. When it gets down to the 20's and you need shower/bathtub/dishwasher along with building heat both boilers fire. Cut oil use by almost half. Have radiant floor and panel rads.

Steamhead (in transit)

The setup you describe is called \"hydro-air\"

and has almost all the disavantages of forced-air distribution: drafts, rushing air noise, increased air infiltration/exfiltration, primordial life forms growing in the ducts etc. etc. etc. It will never work as well as a properly-operating steam system. Think about it- moving air makes you feel cooler. That's great in summer, but bad in winter.

I assume the contractor pushing the hydro-air also wants to do the tear-out- if so he surely sees lots of dollar signs there. Enough said.

A good part of the current system's inefficiency is the old boiler. I bet it's way oversized, most coal-fired boilers were. Count up the radiation and see what the firing rate on a properly-sized modern steamer would be- I bet much smaller.

Old pipes in the walls are not generally a problem in a steam system, as long as they're insulated. I've moved some over the years and they've looked good inside. If your pipes are noisy, that's fixable. A properly-operating steam system is whisper-quiet.

Steam has another advantage over hot-water- it won't freeze up in an extended power failure.

Also, don't forget the house itself. If it does not have good insulation, windows etc., it will cost a lot to heat no matter what system you have.

We have steam customers who are experiencing 32-36% reductions in fuel consumption since we straightened out their systems, in most cases without having to replace the boilers. This is by far the most cost-effective way to go that I've seen. And I know of one person who has cut his own consumption by 70% or so- his system was in real bad shape before he found The Wall. They are all much more comfortable with steam than they would ever be with forced-air.

I wouldn't give up on your steam system. Try the Find a professional page of this site to locate someone near you who knows steam.

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Christian Egli_2

Thought it said checking my steam, but nope, it says chucking

Then my heart sank.

Should we assume your home is nearly entirely heated with indirect steam coils that are hidden from the view and dump lots of hot air into your rooms through holes in the walls? Or is it simply full of those cast iron beauties that keep you warm in the winter?

I think this distinction would change my position towards your dilemma.

To go on a bit, I want to say there is nothing marginal about steam heat efficiency. You take good care of it, and you won't even notice it working in the back ground keeping your home comfortable, swiftly and evenly. Steamhead, here, has shown these efficient results. It's just an unknown to lots of heating contractors.

As far as heating old draughty homes, tighter insulation is a key to reducing costs, and when heating with air, air tightness becomes paramount. In contrast, heating with radiators works in a large part through radiation beams which do not leak through air cracks before getting to warm you. Efficient inspite of the home's inefficent insulation.

I would think long and hard about demolishing anything, because you might regret it once gone. Add the AC, combine it with a heat pump for no extra cost, and you'll have efficient air heat for shoulder season and currently electric costs make running heat pumps very enjoyable. Fix your steam and keep it as a secret weapon for when the winter gets cold.

Al Letellier_9

chucking steam

I agree with Christian about trying to save the steam heat. First of all, the numbers you quote make me shiver. 10,000sq feet and a 6GPH nozzle?!?!? Even with a non-flame retention burner that is WAY oversized according to what you say you need (450,000) !!! Even that sounds high for the size house. Where is it? Antartica??? Have you have an accurate heat loss done? I'd dtart there and then have a good steam guy look over your system. Hydro air is great when properly installed and may be a viable solution for you, and two boilers can be very efficient if properly controlled, but a properly operating steam system, coupled with say a tanlkess gas water heater can be more efficient and gie you lots of comfort and hot water.

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Mark Hunt

10,000 square feet = 450,000 btu's???


Do you live on the edge of the Arctic circle??

That's 45 btu's per square foot!! Are all the windows busted?? Who came up with that number? Sounds like a SWAG to me.

6 gallon per hour nozzle?? Using "industry accepted" numbers that translates into 840,000 btu's of input.

The reason your heating bills are so high sir is because you're system is GROSSLY oversized and piped wrong. Go measure the connected radiators and take a picture of the boiler room. Post the results here.

You go ahead and install a 450k OUTPUT hydro air system in there. Your heating bills are NOT going to come down.

The existing system can be fixed, even the banging and hissing.

But then again...........it's your money.

Mark H PE



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Boilerpro_5

Another point in addition to the others raised

If you chuck the steam system, you will also be chucking a system that can provide radiator by radiator Thermostatic control without any zone valves or wiring. In addition, this type of system would be an excellent application for staged multiple steam boilers. Here's a recent staged steam boiler I have installed. Works quite sweet. Properly operating steam systems are so quiet it can be spooky, especially when they used to be noisy due to improper boiler sizing or incorrect piping. I had one system that used to bang and when we replaced the boiler with a properly piped and sized boiler the homeowner could not sleep nights because he thought the heat had stopped working. If you're in or near Illinois, give me a call, I can probably help

Boilerpro

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Glen_5

Now you guys have me thinking twice about getting rid of the steam. From what I understand, a new steam boiler, properly sized, will save me energy $$$, but will still never have the efficiency of the best hot water boilers. The other issue is I have two radiators on the 3rd floor that do not work at all. The vents are clear, valves open, etc. That concerns me. I am not going to open up 3 stories of wall to track the problem. There are about 32 radiators in the house. At least 7-8 make a lot of sloshing noise and keep people up at night. Yes, I have shimmed them, they are properly vented, etc. with no relief from the noise. I also have to deal with what used to be the old servants wing. Those radiators do not heat that space well and if I want to rent it, it really needs to have its own zone.

Those are some of the other factors I was basing my decision on. Your continued feedback is appreciated.

Boilerpro_5

Sloshing radiators

could be caused by dirty boiler water, overfired/oversized boiler, oversized venting of radiators, and the most common for those not in the know, partially open inlet valves...one pipe steam valves need to be full open or full closed. Groups of radiators not heating properly is usually caused by poor venting of steam mains and risers, boiler short cylcing (generally incorrect anticipator setting on themostat), and/or excessively fast venting of radiators.
It sounds like someone who knows steam well could probably get the system running a whole lot better and much more efficiently if given a small amount of time.

Boilerpro

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Steamhead (in transit)

Radiators that don't heat,

make sloshing noises etc. are easily fixed. 99 times out of 100 the problem is not inside the walls. With steam, the symptom and the actual problem are often in very different places. A good steam man knows where to look!

Thermostatic radiator valves would give tenants control over their own heat. If you wanted a separate boiler for that zone, simply hook a smaller boiler to the steam and return mains for that wing.

You've probably seen ads for hot-water boilers with efficiencies over 90%. In order to achieve such efficiencies, the entire system must be designed for very low water temperatures. In hydro-air, this can result in some real big duct coils- in some cases too big to fit the ducts.

Have you considered a mini-duct system for your A/C?

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Mark_46

Steamhead

I certainly recognize and appreciate that steam, being 100 year-old technology, is still a viable heating solution. It's amazing in fact! But something you touched on is key, a good steam man. Try to find one in a given area. In fact, try finding a good heat man, period. Unfortunatley, there are a lot of guys out there who pretend to know what they're doing. And that goes for all trades. Its really sad. Craftsmanship is for the most part dead.

The community and those who contriute debate and discussion on this website are WITH OUT DOUBT the exception rather than the rule as a homeowner searching for contractors. Guys who know steam are already far and few between and getting more scarce by the year. Sometime in the future when, for all intensive purposes, all steam systems are gone there will then be NO ONE familiar with these system types. Its a significant factor that must be considered from the ownership perspective.

Paul Pollets

I Agree!!

Going to 4 air handlers will cost more to operate than a well-tuned steam system. I'll want to bet that traps and vents need replacement. A 10K SF home will always heat better with steam, providing the system is set up correctly and maintained.

Find a Pro who has the experience.

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Unknown

from my past

From my past experices with customers that had system changeover from steam or hot water to forced air system because the salemaen were smoother and convicing, they all say the same thing...regrets,regrets regrets, wished they stayed with hyronics heat with smaller ducts for air cond... I,myself a plumber and I would not hire a plumber to do the heating work just because pipes are just pipes... Call the heating company that works with boilers and the system... By the way where are u located?

Dave_4

listen to the experts

Glen,

From a homeowner with Steam heat, my advice is to listen to the experts on the Wall.

Find a Steam pro you like in your area from the Find a Professional link. Have them size your new steam boiler properly to your attached radiation, ensure all your mains are vented and properly insulated. Get some good radiator vents.

In addition, blow in insulation if your walls are not insulated and consider plastic over your windows in the winter if you do not have good windows and you can feel the cold air coming in them.

We love our steam heat. When we first moved in it was very noisy and didn't heat well (and cost a fortune to run). After insulating the mains, Gorton main vents, a good boiler, good radiator vents, etc, we can now appreciate what a wonderful heating system it is.

Our system is so quiet now we don't even know it is on, yet it produces wonderful feeling warm heat which we never had with forced air.

You have a gigantic house, so expect that it will cost a fortune to heat. However, there is nothing wrong with Steam heat for your home. After you fix the issues and replace your oversized coal-converted beast, it will do a much better job providing comfortable/cost effective heat than hot air could ever dream of.

Boilerpro_5

Mark,

if you have ever attended one of Dan's steam seminars and see the number of contractors that are educating themselves about steam heat, I think you may find that the number of contractors that know steam is definitely on the rise. Dan could not sell all those steam books without someone buying them. I bet today, there are literally thousands more heating contractors that know steam than there were 15 to 20 years ago, I being one.

Boilerpro

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Mark_46

rjbphd

Right now I will run the hydro-air on the heat side and see how it goes. My backup plan (and I always have one) is based on the assumptions that hydronic is the best and forced air systems may not be the most comfortable, etc is to abandon the hot-water coils and install fin tube baseboard. The miniduct had to be installed for the A/C anyway! So nothing wasted there. The only extra equipment installed right now to make it hydro-air is the water coils and some PEX. I can live with writing those off as a loss if need be. How much could they be worth? Of course, I would then have to purchase lengths of baseboard, etc but that would be true now or later. So it's a wait and see. Backup plans...I highly recommend them ).

I am located in very Northeastern New Jersey. Last time I searched for a pro using this site not too many names came up. But I see the list is growing.

Mark_46

Boilrpro

Its both an interesting and strange statistic that the number of contractors educating themselves on steam is on the rise. Why do you think that is? How many residential systems could still be out there? I cant believe that the steam system population is stable or on the rise.

Tell me if you agree, fin tube baseboard dominates the heating market these days and radiant floor is probably the state of the art for new construction. Are people reverting back to steam?

D107

Post your city and state location on this thread so

the wallies might be able to help you find a steam pro in your area. The 'Find a Professional' link on the site has some great contractors--not all of them steam people though. You've already gotten the attention of some great steam people. I'm a homeowner who received help from Dan and his books and others in balancing a 90 yr old nyc steam system in a apartment building some years back. The most important thing is to follow through and get a pro down there to give a proper evaluation. Some top heating pros here have taken the time to respond to you in some detail; a site visit is the only real way to make a proper assessment. While there is often debate on the wall about hot water vs steam efficiency, changing one to the other is a whole different ballgame. Don't give in to the temptation --and sometimes the push from local contractors--to rip everything out.
good luck,

David

Boilerpro_5

I think.....

with the emphasis on these being my impressions, is that as the number of knowledgable steam contractors rises, the number of steam systems chucked is going to slow down. Yes, I believe it will continue to fall, but a huge portion of the market in the north and eastern U.S. continues to use steam and in major cities, so it is not going away soon in the residential market. As the true costs of operating forced air heating systems come to light, this will also slow the loss of steam heating systems. Besides, there are still some new steam systems going in. I've extended a few myself into large additions and expect I will be installing a complete new system sometime soon. Also, if you look at the new products coming out for steam, such as Runtal streamlined wall hugs radiators, the upgrading of one pipe systems to Paul airline systems, the upgrade of two pipe systems to supply orifice plate vapor systems; steam/ vapor is a very long way from diappearing. Remember, the new steam boilers going in now will last 20 to 30 years, outliving 3 typical forced air furnace installs. The efficiency gains of hot water are much smaller than they used to be with all the knowledge being applied to get steam systems working as they were intended, or much more efficiently than they orignally were. If I remember right, Dan H has been involved in the installation of hundreds of new steam systems in New York. It really all depends on how well educated the marketplace becomes. The more educated, the more likely steam will stick around for a long time.

Boilerpro

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Glen_5

What is the Paul airline one pipe system upgrade you are referring too?

Boilerpro_5

Paul Systems

are a one pipe steam/ vapor system where the air vents are replaced by Paul vents which have a connection for a small 1/4 inch diameter line. These lines are all tied together and attached to an air ejector that creates a strong vacumn on the system. They were originally intended to extend the heating time of a coal fire, but are being used now to greatly speed steam distribution in a system because not only is the steam pushing the air out at the beginning of a cycle, but the air is being pulled out by a vacumn pump. At Dan H's recent seminar in Chicago, he realted he recently learned of a one pipe sysetm upgraded to a paul system and the fuel savings were, I believe, in the 20% range or more. I have only bumped into one (no longer in operation as intended) as I am in Scorched air country Midwest US, but it is something I hope to try out soon on the many one pipe systems I bump into.

Boilerpro

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