Knight Boiler Install (Residential) Job Pics

Gibson_2

@Kal. Thanks much for the explanation.

Paul Rohrs_7

TVT MJ

TVT (The VERY Talented) Matt Jarchow finished piping up this new residence for infloor radiant heat. All infloor single temp high-mass radiant with DHW on priority. Outdoor reset and DHW will be controlled by this 210,000 btu beauty from Lebanon,TN.

Space was a little goofy. We wound up "carving out" a little alcove under the stairs and wound up wrapping the alcove with our copper lines.

1½" primary loop, 1" DHW loop, and 1" boiler loop, plus we had a ½" copper line for our water feed, plus a 1" supply and return to feed a manifold tucked between the boiler and buffer tank.

All circs have integral flow check and zone pumps all have watts-radiant flow-setters on the return.

This buffer tank was piped in series with the primary loop. When DHW call and the P2 pump takes over (and P1 drops off) The P3 system pump remains engaged and I can simultaneously satisfy zone heating and DHW. We put an additional flow check on the boiler supply feeding the primary loop just in case the P3 circ wanted to pull in some flow. Yeah it's belts and suspenders, but the price of an additional flow check was beans. (EDIT: I am relocating the sensor so that during DHW mode, I will have a more accurate inlet temp reading and will not overshoot on temp.)

Hats off to Matt for a fine piping job. He brazed up the primary loop headers and propressed everything else.

This house was about 9,000 sq/ft including the 2 2-stall garages. Nice place. Drywall gets stocked tomorrow and after the first coat of mud (and tape) we'll put down our tubing on the main level and then it will get gypcrete.

Regards,

PR

gerry gill

nice!!very nice

you guys do some really awesome work..love it..

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RMA

sweet

diamond plate is over the top
orange county choppers head set
nice work
rick

bob_50

First Class

workman-ship. Paul, I have a question about your design. Isn't P3 in series with each of the zone pumps?

Paul Rohrs_7

Primary Loop

is driven by the P3 Circ and each of the zone pumps are secondary loops. Look at the attached PDF again, hopefully that will clarify.

Paul

Rob Blair

You need to reset your camera date

It says 01/01/03

Beautiful job.

Rob

bob_50

Paul

after looking again it looks to me like a "portion" of the head developed by P3 is added to the head of each of the zone pumps. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the zone pumps are not hydraulicly isolated from the primary loop pump(P3)as in primary secondary pumping. Not trying to give you a bad time Paul, just trying to understand what looks like a beautiful job. bob

Uni R_3

Beautiful Workmanship

9000 sf and they make you carve out space! ;-)

Is the bracket holding up the Knight Lochinvar's wall mount kit?

Paul Rohrs_7

P3

circ is a dedicated system circ pump. It is pumping a complete loop. The buffer tank is piped in series to the primary loop. When the first zone calls for heat, it engages the appropriate zone pump, signals the boiler for the call for heat, dependant on S1 temps, but P3 engages and starts pumping the loop. Flow thru the primary loop would have to stop and change course 90° (angle) to have its flow added to the flow of a secondary loop.

Better?

Paul

Paul Rohrs_7

Wall bracket

was made out of strut by TVT Matt Jarchow. Dude is a wiz with strut.

Paul

Moses

New Install

Beautiful job! very nice workmenship!

Don't you have to first neutralize the condensate before you can dump it into the house drain?

From where dose the second line come from?

Moses

Paul Rohrs_7

> Beautiful job! very nice workmenship!

>

> Don't

> you have to first neutralize the condensate

> before you can dump it into the house

> drain?

>

> From where dose the second line come

> from?

>

> Moses

Unknown

wondering

What a beautiful job.. Hope its offest from the living room so people can see this job! Question, is the pvc drain going to the sewer? If so, is the drain trapped?

Paul Rohrs_7

Moses

The PVC tee's and bell reducer are full of crushed marble as a neutralizing agent. There is sufficient contact time for neutralization before it terminates at the drain.

I wish I could take credit for it but I modeled this after Dave in Denver's neutralizer.

Edit:I'm not sure which second line you are talking about?

Paul

Jeff Lawrence_25

Do you think it's wise

To drain the pressure relief into the PVC for the condensate? I know it has to go somewhere, but....

Moses

I thought that it was piped straight in to the drain.

I stand corrected, thanks for clearifying

Moses

Unknown

my bad

I re checked the last picture and see what you did... The pipe is standing on end and outlet is at the top/side.... Cool job.

Dave Stroman

Looks great, Paul. Isn't is fun to design and pipe up jobs like these. I have been playing with different designs on neutralizer. Here is one.

I never have used a buffer tank before. But on a few jobs I have a micro zone that really could use one. Will have to think about doing that next time. Who makes the tank?

Dave in Denver

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Dave_4

your are right paul...

the strut work is simply amazing !!!

the actual piping, is in a way, better than the diag, cause in the diag, the heat from the DHW tank could migrate to the system in the summer – even though the pump and setter checks are supposed to stop the flow, there would still be some losses – but the actual piping has a built-in natural heat trap to mitigate this effect – I do a lot of up and downs in my boiler rooms intentionally for this – and make them insulate all that copper “art”

you did not specify the pump schedule – was wondering if you are using Lochinvar’s new 20f delta-t pump schedule for the DWH load – also are you using the aquastat on the buffer tank to keep the temp steady?

I like to use electric water heaters for buffer tanks – as they come with a built-in aquastat – and if I have a dead boiler I can simply re-hook the element back to the aquastat and power the heat electrically – would be useful here as you only have one boiler

Brad White_172

A Knight to Remember

Very talented indeed! Matt is to be commended for his skills and craftsmanship. The Diamondplate (HB inspired perhaps?) is worthy of the enameled frame.

Matt knows how to 'strut' his stuff- outstanding work!

Thanks for sharing!

Brad

gerry gill

Paul, a question

Paul, what was the computer program you did that drawing in? its really cool.

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hot_rod

Top notch work

as always. Very nicely installed.

I would tend to agree with bob, if P-3 and the zone circs are running P-3 would add to the zone circ flow, or vice versa. Only closely spaced tees or a hydro separator could prevent that.

Have you ever tried an install with the buffer in series with the return at the boiler loop? Seems like the best way to assure the lowest possible return temperatures.

I met with the folks from www.heat-flo at NAOHSM. They are ready and willing to build custom buffer tanks. Blank tanks, or single coil, or dual coil. Even solar tanks with 1 or 2 coils and an electric element back up port.

hot rod

Paul Rohrs_4

Primary Loop Flow

I have redrawn the primary loop as it is piped on the job. In the drawing, primary loop flow is represented by a dashed purple line. I'm not quite understanding how flow from a secondary zone pump is going to be interrupted or altered by flow from the primary loop.

If the primary loop was piped as drawing "Primary Loop Flow #2" then I could see how the P3 circ could induce flow in secondary loops, the water from the loop would have no where else to go. It is NOT piped that way.

Am I missing something or am I not articulating this setup?

Regards,

PR

hot_rod

the boiler

is connected to the "primary loop" via a set of closely spaced tees. So the flow and hydraulics thru the boiler are not "effected" by the primary circ operation.

However the zone circs are not connected via closely spaced tees. so when one or all of those operate a portion, a hard to calculate portion, of their "head" will be added to the flow of the primary circ. How could it not, they are in series with the primary loop?

Why not the zone circs via closely spaced teed also?

But you would need to calc the temperature drop from circuit to circuit.

hot rod

kal_2

opps my home browser put in martin instead of kal - just noticed

Steve Ebels_3

Scratching my head too

If your zone circs were piped typical pri/sec fashion with the tees adjacent to each other the zones would see virtually no pressure drop between the tees. Even though your P3 circ on the "intermediate" loop does indeed have a complete circuit, you still have a fair amount of pressure drop between your zone supply and return. It may result in some unwanted flow from what I can tell looking at the pics.

ScottMP

Paul

Great looking job, from the Vision drawings to the completed set-up. Very Nice and Top Shelf.

I think I understand what these guys are getting at and HR sees to say it the best.

Keep up the great work and thanks for the photos.

Scott

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Paul Rohrs_7

Thanks Scott

I appreciate all of the comments and now realizing that I have an opportunity to correct an oversight. Matt piped it exactly the way I asked him to.

Time to eat some humble hydronic pie and fix MY mistake.

The thought of altering Matt's handywork is only bothering me a little more than knowing that it was my design flaw.

Everyone be safe this weekend.

Paul

gerry gill

yah, but Paul,

if it works then its fine, isn't it? if it works its not a mistake..least not in my book..i always say, if 10 people do a job, they will come up with 10 different ways to do it..and all may be just fine..so i don't see it as a mistake to be corrected as long as all works well..which i'm sure it will..i'm thinking the others are just helping us consider something we may not have thought about, so that it doesn't someday bite us in the pooper someday..i know i wouldn't have thought about it..but i will next time also..i kind of design things the way you did too..

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Unknown

Awesome job !

I love when people have pride in what they do.
Question : Are all your radiant manifolds set up the same way ? If so, is that why you have circuit setters on all your returns ? And if that's also so, then you just made sure all the loops where of equal length to not have to adjust your flows for each loop ?

Dave_4

A simple fix is…

to loop together the top and bottom rails after the air separator, and close-T the buffer tank system together with it’s “P-3” into that point, as it loops from bottom to top – this way it could still supply heat when the boiler is in DHW mode and it’s SpaceHeat pump is off, and optionally an aquastat on the buffer tank can maintain a min temp

clammy

circuit stters

paul ,just wondering who,s the manfaturer of those circuit setters are those califee ,extremmely beatuiful job,nice layout and excellent attention to details and excutions your installer deserves a couple of beers and a lunch on the company peace and good luck clammy

kal_2

like this...

i disassembled/reassembled it in adobe illustrator, - your insignia got messed up - sorry - i am not all that good with the full adobe line

if this is radiant only - i would have the buffer's aquastat demand the boiler, and the zones controller demand the buffer pump - simplifies things - as each sub-section takes care of itself - it's the way i do this with a rinnai - the zones take and return water to the tank - and the tank's stat runs it's pump to the rinnai to heat itself, and the rinnai of course runs itself based on flow and temp - real simple

hot_rod

A crude drawing, but...

here is another method that I use. A HTP buffer tank with 4 connections makes it easy.

The tank is the "de-coupler, air seperator, and buffer.

The boiler sees the coolest possible return temperatures. And it costs you one less circ and operating control.

hot rod

Lyle C

Buffer tank

Paul I've used the HTP buffer as a de-coupler, air seperator, and buffer. Works great, but, that tank of yours also has 4 tappings, being of a smaller diameter it might work even better on the future jobs. Using the tank on this one would ruin the flow of this room . It's unclear from your photo who makes your tank? Great job!

Paul Rohrs_7

Questions

Clammy - Those flow-setters are from Watts-Radiant.

Lyle- That is a buffer tank from HTP. It is a model BB30.
"Boiler-Buddy" 30-gallon.

KC- We usally build are own manifolds out of the Sioux-Chief brand branch manifolds. All loop lengths are identical so flow is inherently balanced. That is why I like to balance total zone flow with the Watts-Radiant flow-setters.

Kal, I like the closely spaced tee's after the air-separator. Might be a simpler fix than what I had envisioned. Looking forward to meeting you at Lochinvar this week.

Regards,

Paul

kal_2

after a long hard look at the pictures...

i figured this would be the least painfull - propress is great until you need to change things - then ouch!

paul: whats the lead time on those "branch masters" from SC?

clammy: i just looked it up so i thought to save you the search time - page 4 of this subsection, they call it "FlowGuards" comes in .5-4gpm & 1-13gpm
http://www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/catalogs/HeatingCatalog07-S08.pdf

Paul Rohrs_7

Stocked Locally for me

But Sioux Chief has plenty in stock. I won't say it is an "A" item at most wholesalers, but with a little persuasion or stock order, it could easily be a "B" item. (SKU your wholesaler might bring in and expect less movement on, but they might make an extra 5% on).

Paul

clammy

Thanks Paul and Kal

Thanks guys ,i've seen a few other manafuctures flow setters in catalogs but when questioning my local hydronic supply guy there 3 headed monster pops up with as always whatta need that for ,you don,t need them and of course nobody ever orders thosethey used to say that about pdv now they don't peace and good luck clammy

Unknown

I like the way you did that. Zero manifold valves to deal with. Less wiring. Less money !