new boiler

Roznne Smith

We purchased a very big old house (built in 1894) near Butte, Montana,a three story, 6000sf brick monster! (No she is not a monster, she is really just a beautiful neglected lady!) We bought the house in July of last year and then my husband died suddenly in August leaving me alone to make all the decisions on what to do with it.

I want to put in a new, efficient boiler (I think I will go with 2 smaller boilers, I like that idea) and try to zone the house somewhat (even if it means just thermostatic radiator valves). It has a Gravity Hot-Water Heating system with a circulator and a closed compression tank (I think this is what I have). I have 26 radiators in 21 rooms. The original boiler was coal powered. It now has a natural gas
monstrosity put in around the late 50s we guess.

I have had quite a few knuckleheads in to look at it all and give me bids. There is nobody on the website recommendations in Montana at all! So I have had to resort to, yes, the yellow pages!

All the knuckleheads have said they have never seen anything like my system, (I have included some pictures), and I am not sure they know how to begin to help me. I feel most of them are just guessing at what to do. None of them did any kind of heat loss calculation or measured my existing radiation other than to maybe count them. All they want to know is the Btu output of my existing boiler. I have gotten one bid back at $37,000.oo to just exchange out the boiler and include a hot water heater for the house hot water. Is this way out of line or am I just naive to the price of a boiler install?

My husband was very skilled in all areas of construction and was an HVAC mechanic and area maintenance supervisor for the US Postal service for over 20 years. He was somewhat familiar with boilers but we really had not done much of anything as far as the restoration of this house, just a lot of ideas and dreams before he died. I would appreciate any
advice you can give me. I have read the books ‘We Got Steam Heat’ and ‘How Come’, which have helped me tremendously but they are a little over my head or should I say I have no real interest in truly understanding these systems. But I might have to unless I want to be scalped by some nucklehead. Please can anyone give me any advice as how
to proceed with finding a heating plumber, how to know a price range or anything that I should know which might help me.

Here is the bid I received exactly how it was sent to me. Shouldn’t it have more of a break down of the price of things or is this normal? Obviously I will have to stipulate to them that I want a detailed bid.

We propose to install 1(one) K-809 Burnham natural gas boiler with knock down section assembly. 491,000 BTU in, 356,000 out with pump relay and LWCB, 30 lb relay, electronic ignition. Grundfos pump & jacket. We will install amtrol expansion tank, crown water maker & air
eliminator and boiler control. Labor & Materials 37,000.000


I am also in need of help when it comes to insulating this old place. Can anyone recommend a good book or two that deals with insulating and weather proofing old homes? I have read that it is actually not good to insulate a brick house because of the thermal flow of air between the brick and the inside walls. Is this true? Most articles I read about insulation don’t talk about a brick house only stick built.
Sincerely, Rozanne

Mitch_5

If you have the funds

you should have an engineer do a proper heat loss and design. If you can get the boiler size down to the 300 range you may be able to use one Ultra or maybe two.

I would pull as much piping out as possible you can run independent lines to the existing radiation I am assuming you have not started to totally renovate the living areas.

In alot of cases you can find the individual radiator drops in the cellar and make your attachments with pex from there. We have done several projects like that and if you can get the thirmostat wires back you can make almost every room its own zone. Also if you have cast iron radiators you can run your temps way down to take advantage of the best parts of condensing boilers.

You will most likely double the original estimate but have a much more comfortable and efficient system when done.

Mitch S.

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Unknown

a 30 lbs relay?

That's a new one to me.. ( meaning 30lbs releif valve, which comes with boiler) I agreed with what Mitch say. I've worked with home larger than yours with less btu input boiler.. Keep asking for boiler pros and you'll find one... Sorry, I'm from Chicagoland. Good luck

Steamhead (in transit)

A simpler strategy

would be to leave the system piping as it is, then have thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) installed on radiators in rooms you want to keep cooler than the main living areas (such as bedrooms). As long as the system pipes are insulated, they won't lose much heat.

TRVs are limiting devices that will shut off the flow of hot water to a radiator when the room reaches the TRV's set point. A TRV will not start the boiler when the room cools down, but will open to admit more hot water to the radiator on the next boiler cycle. Here's a pic of one in my house.

A heat-loss calculation is a MUST! It's the only proper way to size a hot-water boiler. Without the calc you're just guessing- on some jobs we've been able to install boilers 1/3 the size of the ones being replaced, because we did the heat-loss calc. You can order a calc program from Slant/Fin on CD, or download it if you have broadband Net access, by clicking on "Free Heat Loss Calcs" above. Note that the default outdoor temperature in the program is 0 degrees F, you'll want to change this to -40 or whatever is the lowest temperature you experience there.

Regarding the boiler itself, our company generally installs boilers that can burn either oil or gas by just having a pro swap burners (and tune them with a digital analyzer of course!). This puts the owner in charge of what fuel to burn, so he or she can burn whatever is cheapest per BTU. Not all boiler makers offer this option- Smith and Solaia are two that do.

I've spent some time in Montana. It's a long way from Baltimore, but I hope to go back there someday.

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tim smith

Regarding grand old house

Get proper sizing done, two boilers i feel is a good idea. I am doing two as we speak in a similar size house. Thermostatics are ok except I don't like the looks much of the valve and operator when put on an old ornate radiator in a room that is quite elaborate. JMHO. I will e mail you some further info.

D107

Insulation?

Homeowner here. Many of the pros on the site usually recommend taking stock of your insulation first. Insulating properly could really lower the size of the boiler installed.

Just as an example, for a 2000 sqft decently insulated house in ny 47K heat loss we replaced a 150Kbtu firing boiler with an 84Kbtu firing boiler and from what we've seen in one winter we could have installed a 64K btu boiler and been fine.

You've got 3X the square footage, X insulation and a colder climate, but there's a good chance your bids grossly oversize the boiler. If you're not computer savvy, there are manual ways of measuring heat loss that you could do in a few hours.

Good luck,

David

Chris_82

2 or more,...

I have seen a lot of resistance to this idea but in the past we have done a number of small commercial and large homes with multiple boilers and had very good results as well as having the peace of mind that multiple boilers brings in case one fails, as well as multiple fuels avalable.

Steamhead (in transit)

Good point, David

which brings up another thing that favors using heat-loss calc computer programs. It's extremely easy to plug in different values for insulation, storm windows etc. and see how much effect they have on the total heat loss. Sometimes this lets you go to a smaller boiler.

But if you don't do the calc, you're guessing!

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Boilerpro_5

Folks here are pointing you in the right direction plus and edit

In the past, on larger installations like yours, I have always recommended at least two boilers, with one sized to the typcial winter day heat loss and the other providng extra capacity for those 10 or so really cold days. When using conventional on/off boilers, having one samller boiler running almost constantly really boosts fuel efficiency, while keeping equipment very simple. With the a large number of boilers now available that can modulate the size of the flame to gain better efficiency, the efficiency benefits of using two boilers are not as great as they once were. However, there is real piece of mind knowing you have two heat sources for your home.....especially in cold climates like yours. In addition, I also duplicate pumps....What good is it to have two heat sources if a single pump fails.....you still end up with no heat. What would probably work very nicely for your home is one modulating/ condensing boiler sized to handle you typical winter day heating loads with a conventional on /off boiler (probably an induced draft unit venting out the sidewall because few chimneys are up to snuff for gas fired boilers) to give that extra boost in really cold weather. An indirect fired water heater would be a good idea to handle the heavy water heating loads that can occur if a large home is full of guests. A 40 gallon model with an efficient heat transfer surface that can heat alot of water in a hurry would be very efficient. An electronic control could run all this equipment.

The recommendations for installing Thermostat radiator valves and leaving the existing piping in place are right on the mark.....why run thermostat wires, pull out perfectly good piping to zone a system with on/off thermostats, when modulating room by room control can be installed for what can be expected to be less cost?

And definitely have a true heat loss done....any contractor that does not do this (and he may charge for the service) should be shown the door. Not completing these calculations is against many codes and is certainly not in your best interests.

Are there any contrators on this site listed for your area?

Boilerpro


EDIT: If you have one of the extremely rare one pipe gravity hot water systems, alot of my and other recommendations change. With this type of system the supply and return to each radiator ties into the same pipe. This will completely baffle almost every contractor. I have come to understand that out of all the huge experience of those on this board, I am one of the few to ever see and work on one of these odd systems.
All

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aaron_4

New boiler

Hello Roznne,

You could try radiant panel association web site for a contractor at
http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/custom/directory/index.cfm

click on dealer/contractor in the drop down bar then on the next window put in MT on the drop down bar then click on full directory and click on search (do not put in your city). Hope that helps. If you need a lock smith I know a good one in Helena.

mark schofield

If your husband had any co-workers that he admired, you might contact one of them to find what contractors your husband used and trusted when he needed outside help at his facilities. After so many years, he certainly had a list of people he recommended, trusted and worked with when jobs became too large for him. Possibly you could get in touch with some of them for initial advice. Good luck

FRANK_24

AND HERE'S ANOTHER THING......

......you could go to a few local supply houses and ask for recomendations, ask to see the guys work. You could ask neighbors also. If you have heat up there on the third floor, I don't think a 30 lb. relief valve is big enough. Therefore you may have to find a boiler that is rated at least 50 lbs. They are around, not such a hard thing to find. That picture of the grand ole house is beautiful, so treat her right and don't rush into something that you are not comfortable with. Search for the right guy and you'll find one. Good luck