Condensing & copperfin!

Jeff Lawrence_25

In Noel's program. Hydronic Explorer Version 2.

Using 150 degree water, I'd need a total of 46.5 feet of Fine/Line 15 and using 180 degree water, I'd need 30 feet of the same.

Sure, it's a little more money, but I'll have some room to spare for more BTU's when the next blizzard hits.

Jim Pompetti

Just curious what other guys views are on Condensing boilers and copper-fin baseboard?

hr

Why not

Ideally you would size the radiation to keep return temperatures in the temperature range to leverage the condensing efficiency.

Even if the OD reset bumps out of condensing conditions at times, much of the year could be handled at high efficiency , condensing conditions.

The modulating feature alone is a big plus on zoned systems, not to metion all the features avaliable on the control modules. Set back, data logging DHW priority...

My home is mainly hwbb. I added some radiant ceiling and dropped the supply temperature to the baseboard.

With a Lochinvar Knight my fuel use dropped considerably from the older cast boiler.

hot rod

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Quite efficient provided the user understands how to operate and the installer provides good information/access/setting ability to the consumer.

Don't take my word for it: Reasonable Study of JUST What you Ask from a Noted Source

IMPORTANT TO NOTE: NO DAILY SETBACK!!!!! Throw daily setback into this mix and the "period of condensing operation" calculations are absolute garbage!!!!@!

KEEP THE HEAT LOW AND SLOW!!!! You'll be more comfortable AND you'll save energy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chuck Shaw_10

Copper Fin and Condensing

Jamie,

Nothing wrong with copper fin tube and a condensing boiler. You have several advantages, first the most obvious, a lower mass boiler, even if you operate at set-point, this can be a savings, as well as a better response time. As Hot Rod said, you can add the out door reset, and depending on your curve, you could be condensing at relatively cool outdoor temps. Then there is the plain and simple comfort of a near constant circulation system.

Chuck

Jeff Lawrence_24

Planning stages

HR,

I'm planning on installing some HWBB in the finished section of my basement. To start with, I'm going to run it off of a free 30 gallon WH (~ 38K input) dedicated to the HWBB.

After that motors along for a short while and some $$ comes available, I'm planning on installing a Knight or Munchkin boiler for the HWBB, a couple of radiant zones, and an indirect water heater.

The HWBB zone has been designed around a temp of 150° water, so there will be a bit more of the HWBB than required at 180°. This will keep me closer to condensing temp and when I hook up the ODR, it should work a lot more efficiently.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Thanks Mike.

Thats good info.

Ed

Christian Egli_2

Copper fin tube costs and the X5 factor

I find copper fin tubes particularly attractive for their convenience. A simple solution that is beautiful without all the heavy branching and valving and pumping and zoning of the other systems. Fin tubes are largely unknown in Europe, but their homes aren't often square and solid walls are hard to go through; instead they use free standing fin tubes look alike.

Providing there is enough radiation, it works just fine on low temperature.

I am not entirely sure homes are fitted with nearly enough radiation for low temperature systems. I say this simply based on the impression I get from so many comments here on the Wall about questions to do with the water boiler being oversized and short cycling.

Without going into boiler vs. heat loss issues, one way to look at the problem is to think there isn't enough radiation to dissipate the heat being produced, thus the boiler cycles and appears over sized. This, of course, is the problem you can't mess with in one pipe steam, in hot water it's not so much of a big deal but it doesn't mean it isn't still a problem.

In a home with every inch of outside wall traveled by a fin tube, you should find plenty radiation surface. But, you'll have to come up with a fair method of distributing the heat, because on low modulation with one giant whole home loop, you'll never get much warmth past the first room.

Another reason I think low temperature hot water systems are under radiated is because of the success radiant floors have with low temperature systems. Floors are most excellent at providing lots of square feet of radiation surface... just what the doctor ordered.

Looking at life from my steamed up goggles I would want five times more radiating surface of tepid water radiators as compared to the standard steam filled ones (or a five times smaller boiler). Fascinatingly, this X5 conversion seems to hold true (usually a tiny bit short) in a bunch of buildings I have looked at comparing floorage to EDR. Meanwhile, we usually size water radiation to GPM flow and (an assumed fixed) delta T, not to boiler size directly. There's a missing link.

Are the planets lining up over my head? what do you think?

hr

baseboard sizing tables

typically go down to 150 supply, somewhere around 400 btu/ lin. ft. Compared to around 600 btu/ ft for 180 supply.

In Jeff's case a basement load should be fairly low, but always a load calc is a wise first step.

Run all the numbers, but my gut tells me you should be able to affordably baseboard that basement to get the load with 150 supply.

I could be wrong "the stars may lie but the numbers never do" (Mary Chapin Carpenter)

hot rod

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Unknown

The output is pretty linear below those temps, as well.

Here's some correction factors for other temperatures; air and water.

http://www.slantfin.com/comfin/techpdf/Engineeringdata.pdf

Noel

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Originally provided by Brad White.

I've studied that paper VERY carefully in the reading room...

Weezbo

thats nice. how many zones in the basement ? 2 ?

does your home have an HRV?

Jeff Lawrence_25

One zone

The only divider in the basement is the stairs from the main floor. I am planning to run the HWBB off of a manifold so I can possibly zone it later.

Whle this house (built 1989) is much tighter than the old one (built 1972), it's still loose enough not to need an HRV. Besides, our next blizzard probably won't be until somewhere around 2022. (We're in Georgia)