I finally figured it out.... (ME)

Weezbo

this thread when i clicked on it showed 4 replies not 30+ and it was truncated in the middle of the fourth thread.

the page was slow to boot then there was check your internet connections page not found last night and this morning...

then when on the site and clicking on a post it threw me to a site with some electronic water magnetic seperating clamp on devise for boiler water etc....and some three part reset curve control for commercial boilers...nice and all buh definitely not what i was doing at the time.

now it wont post.?
it shows 4 bars on the loading page deal and i wrote all this stuff in the time it is taking it to post.....

[Deleted User]

I'm tired of being beat up by the consumer for prices we charge.

9 times out of 10, on the phone, in person, you name it, the consumer says "That's too much money".

I ask myself, just where the heck do these people get off telling me how much I should charge for my services? Our company is built on sound business principles and practiced experience modifiers. We're not raping the community, and there is no one in our company driving Hummers or Cayenne's around as personal or business vehicles.

So, where are these people getting thier numbers from?

Well, with the internet being so prolific these days, the consumer has the ability to educate themselves prior to making their first phone call to local contractors to discuss the cost of their projects. Regardless of what I quote, the common response is "That's TWICE as much as I expect to pay for those services!!" Sez who??

Says our government: http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12590

Says some rediculous internet marketeer who doesn't bother to even performan actual heat loss calculation as required by certain code officials;
http://www.radiantec.com/ballpark.htm

Says a "popular" monthly magazine;
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/home_improvement/1329151.html?page=1&c=y

Says a popular Womens Magazine article (looks as though she is echoing information found on the internet);
http://www.caddetails.com/spotlight/apr05/main.htm

Says a noted Canookian mortage company;
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/renoho/refash/refash_010.cfm

(Is that Canadian pricing or American pricing...)

So, as you can see, our prices are dictated by a bunch of people who really have no idea as to our cost of doing business, and what kinds of profit margins we need to maintain in order to guarantee longevity of our company.

The only other thing I can think of that would be worse than an un-educated consumer is a mis-educated consumer who made an attempt to get educated on the internet.

Then, there's the start up plumber who decides to jump onto the radiant band wagon without even knowing his cost of doing business. Where does he go to? Why to his local supply house of course. He sits down with the radiant designer and asks how much he should charge for his radiant floor heating system. THe supplier says "Well, I heard that ABC P&H is getting $4.50 per square foot for their systems..." So, that's what he charges. The supplier forgot to tell this poor **** that that price was for the tubing and manifolds only in a "radiant ready" home and did not include anything for the mechancial support systems or the distribution systems or the control logics etc..

So, now you know why it is that your systmes are TWICE as high as they should be. You don't know what you are doing obviously...

The soap box is now free...

ME

Plumdog_2

9 out of 10?

With me it's 99 put of 100. I'm a one man show and I can't bid low enough to find Plumbing and Heating work anymore. So now, after thirty-four years in the trade; everybody knows more about it than I do. No big deal, I can build decks and paint too. It pays more.

Tim_34

Agreement

Mark

Could not have said it better. On some days I just want to close my shop up and let the people who need my services fend for themselves. This line of work is so easy....why, anyone could do it.

-Paul

Kevin O. Pulver

I agree Mark

those internet places you cited are disgusting. My Dad is a retired truck driver. He was owner/operator, and had some nasty competition for awhile. Local farmers would work for nearly free in the winter hauling grain. Why not? They had bought big semis to haul their harvest for 6 weeks, and had nothing else to do all winter. Dad would say, "I might go broke... but I'm not gonna wear out my truck AND go broke." He switched to a flatbed for years and finally retired. But internet isn't the only trouble for contractors. I know a guy who holds (or held) an elected position on the RPA. He is a "wholesaler" who sells Munchies out of his garage (direct to whoever wants one)
That's the main reason I didn't join. It's a pretty flimsy excuse, but at least as good as the ones that keep people out of church... Kevin

Ragu_5

Here We Go...

Mark ol' boy, you hit me at a good time. I'm covered with cobwebs and blood and mud and oil; basically, I've had a WONDERFUL 3 days in this 5'4" cellar. So good to hear your refreshing remarks!

I agree that the Internet plays a double-edged role in this. I also have to look at the plethora of DIY t.v. shows: "Why pay the cost of a professional installation, when any moron can do heating?".

The thing that you said about the new guys on the block really hit home for me; around here, customers are showing the new guys my Proposals and the new guys are undercutting me right off the top by 20%. Guess what that leaves for them? Nothing; or less. I actually asked them how they were doing and this is a direct quote: "We are going in the hole, but at least we are busy". Oookay.

Stick to your guns Dr. Eatherton; you're o.k. in my book.

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Robert O'Connor_12

Come on Mark!

The "new" "Break Through Technologly" is ALWAYS cheaper and MORE efficient.

And if you order now, the Legionella is on me.





disclaimer: the last word in the last sentence does not mean you, I mean me, I mean.............Oh just forget it.

ps: You are right!


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Wayco Wayne_2

True

I'm doing an easy little job where there needs to be about 600 feet of 1/2 pex in concrete. When I gave him the price he says how can it be so much when you only need 150 feet of pipe. Don't know which site he got his information from but it sure wasnt going to work. I'm acutally getting a lot of work from architechs who have learned the value of using someone who does it right. What a nice developement. WW

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Dave Yates (PAH)

The mantra of the newbie in this business:

I can do it faster;

I can do it better;

I can do it cheaper.

As in - I can work for the big box guys doing their installs.

Busy as all get out for the three years it takes to go belly-up. Sadly, it's a long line behind em - awaiting their turn.

De comes, de goes. Ebb & flow. Ying & Yang.

And now comes the housing "correction" the newbies never anticipated. Time to shake out the weak players.

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frank_25

lost revenue

I've lost trac of how many times I've bumped into a competitor at a sales call. Sometimes ya just get "The Feel" of the H.O., know they're shopping, and don't give it your best shot. "If you are shopping for a cheep price, ya don't want me. I'm not cheep" is what I've told more than a few H.O.'s.

Then there's the few semi-legit guys who under-bid constantly "To keep the guys busy" WHAT-THE-$#@* I thought we worked so damn hard to make a reasonable profit. The shop makes it, and the guys make it.

I have a placard at my desk that says "Professionalism is not expensive, it pays". To those that think "A half a loaf of bread is better than none", I offer--"I strive to work less and make more". And guess what? I work in a modern computerized shop, with the latest equipment, and fifty happy employees taking home a full loaf.

I for one will not sell myself nor my shop for a few meesly dollars

Paul Pollets

Ginsu Knives

"...and for only $1.29 per SF, we'll throw in a set of Ginsu knives...." Such a Deal!!

Reducing radiant to a commodity results in exactly these approaches. It's more than misleading to the consumer. And most offensive to highly skilled craftsmen.

On the other hand, that's why Yugos are sold...their value is seen as "being affordable".

I'd like to see the RPA take a position on the relative value and costing of systems on behalf of the contractors who are members, and have to combat this daily. I won't hold my breath.


Again, to quote Matt Michel..."People don’t understand the cost of service. They don’t comprehend what it costs to put a truck at their door. Thus, any hourly rate, no matter how low, seems like a lot to a consumer."

That translates into system costs, as well. Our systems take 150-160 man hours to install radiant heating in a 2000SF home using a boiler, indirect, pex and controls. How this can be done in "40" is pure snake oil.

My job is to inform the consumer quickly, on the phone in the initial inquiry, what the real projected costs will be.



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Paul Pollets

and....

again with Matt Michel:

"Companies that do not charge enough to cover their costs, fund future growth, and generate a return on the owner’s investment are subsidizing the customer."

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Rollie Peck

Price of services

I'm a homeowner, but I sympathize with you heating contractors being underbid for heating jobs and frequently being told that you charge too much for your services. But please keep in mind that nearly all service organizations are facing the same problem. How many of you hire bands to play at your kids weddings instead of a disk jockey? How many of you change your own oil in your vehicles instead of having a service station or dealer do it?

I seems to me that it would be beneficial for you to stress value instead of price when talking to a customer. "Yes, mister customer, our price may not be the lowest, but here are some of the things our price includes:
highly trained and experinced workers, workers and a company that has been in business for xx years and plans to be around for many more years, a large stock of commonly used parts for everything that we sell, emergency service when you need it, quality products that have proven themselves to be safe and durable, and our commitment to provide you with a safe, economical and comfortrable
heating system. Are you sure that the lower priced bidders include all of these things?"

Make up a "brag book" showing pictures of previous jobs that you have done, your parts department, your workers, the specialized tools that you have bought(and how much you have paid for them), your service vehicles, your training certificates, and letters of appreciation from satisfied customers. Show it to prospective customers as a part of the bidding process.

This won't win you every bid, but it will help you sort out the customers don't care what they get as long as it's cheap from the customers who value a safe, economical and comfortable heating system. I know from reading "The Wall" which kind of customer you guys really want.

Rollie Peck

Homeowner

The Boiler Dr.

Every one's an expert

Thanks to instant information technology everyone has become an expert on everything .............. until their "expertise" fails them.
I have no quarrel with any one who wants to DIY but limitations have to be recognized.

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Simply Rad_2

Stick to your guns!

Hopefully education and a great reputation will far exceed the lousy internet shoppers. We must stick to our guns and continue to create sucessful realationships with our customers. We must also exceed their expectations with the "ulimate in comfort and efficiency" and serivce. Did you guys look at the web sites ME found, some of the pictures and products just down right wrong.
Jeffrey

Steve Ebels_3

The problem is

People don't realize the limits of their expertise until they run into it after the fact. I can't say how many times I've gone into a house to trouble shoot a system, air or water, and beheld a system that looks like it was designed in h__l. When I explain that this and that need to be taken out/replaced/made bigger/changed, I get looked at like I'm a rip off artist. I'm like "HEY! You asked and I just told you"!! Don't shoot the messenger.

Things like a 0011 hooked up to 3/4" copper

A four ton A/C unit puffing through 8x16 duct with 4 6" runs off from the main. "I thought 8x16 was standard" ......Classic

No expansion tank

No return air..........period. Ever. For the two seasons the furnace ran before it burned through.

A 150,000 btu boiler hooked up to a grand total of 44' of baseboard

A 3/4hp B&G hooked up to a zone requiring 20 GPM @ around 9ft of head.

An 800,000 btu boiler running in a 50 sq ft room with no combustion air. A "contractor" had installed an exhaust fan to get rid of the heat. DUH!

I could go on forever............

The point is that in the mechanical trades, what you don't know will cost you a lot of extra dough over the life of the system if it doesn't kill you first. Heating isn't just putting pipes together and hooking gas up to the burner. Things have to be done right AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT RIGHT IS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

Ted_9

Agree

I hear you guys.

I have been weeding people out and start charging for estimates. Why should other professionals get paid for their time and we give it away. A serious customer who values your time will pay a reasonable fee for the expert analysis we as professionals can give them.

BTW, I have had customers that found me through this site, who are educated consumers, and they are my best customers. The internet can work to our advantage.

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Cosmo_3

Still gets to me

I spend time figuring my material cost, adding labor and a little profit. I know the price is not extravagantly expensive considering the equipment and materials I am putting in. So according to a set of plans, and a conversation with the homeowner I submit my estimate.

Then without spending time reading it the HO tells me that it was "Way, way way more expensive than I thought is should be, I am afraid you are just pricing yourself too high." Even though I expect it every time, I still am shocked at the reaction. Even to the point that my left brain convinces my right brain that I should feel guilty for asking for so much. Then I get upset, I didn't picture myself 10 years after college still killing myself working long hours out in the field and in the office for this treatment.

But then we set ourselves up for it. For every guy that charges a fair price there are 4 more undercutting him by 30% or more to take the work away. Of course he won't last forever, but there is another **** to take his place. In the end the customer has an unrealistic expectation as to what our work should cost.

I can complain, however I still haven't come up with a good answer.....

Cosmo

frank_25

been there...

...done that. The company history [we've been around over forty years, ]etc,etc,etc. you guys, the H.O.'s look at the bottom line more than you want the quality of the job 'cause it's in your cellar/basement/where-ever. It's not something that is flashy for the bucks.. You'll shell out many thousands on diamonds, but on something that will provide you with heat, well..............Some people think of our trade as akin to the relative height of the work pants to the verticle division of one's glutus maximus. If'n anyone showed up at my house lookin' like that, I'd turn him around so fast that he wouldn't loose his momentum. What it comes down to is this. We should be getting paid for what we know, not only for what we do. Another thing, we stay in business because of the quality performance of the installation teams. In order to keep those employees, they are handsomly rewarded. That cost naturally is part of the daily labor rate per team cost to you. I could go on & on, or one on one w/you about what I know my time is worth. If you don't like it, there are many who are cheeper.

Larry Weingarten

Cosmo...

...I think Rollie Peck, homeowner, has much of the answer. It basically is what Dan H. and others have been telling us to do for years. Make a handsome proposal that gives your prospective client lots of reasons to have more confidence in you than anybody else. Also, it IS a two way street. There are people you don't want to work for and there are clients who must be fired. Shared mutual respect is necessary for a good, long term relationship.

Yours, Larry

Maine Doug_47

Perhaps the

very mobile society plays a part of this problem. As in why spend that much money when I will A. be transferred in a year or so; B. flip the house and take my money and run; C. get divorced/married/have kids and move out; D. get promoted and want more bling.

My carpenter does no advertising. He is the best drywall master and carpenter I have ever met. He works on my bank when he wants a break or it is raining so I may get a call on Thursday that I can have him and his guys for 3 days next week and I get a break on his rate. I do gofer work and cleanup and provide cold beer as needed. He has signature authorization on my account at the lumber yard. He is always busy and has months of work waiting for him. If you do not know him, you do not need to know him. But this is his hourly rate and people pick the "now serving number 152" tickets. For that the walls will be square, straight, level and the drywall absolutely perfect.

I also found an electrician that I can just hand the bank key to and know I will get better that what I asked for.

Alas, I have not been as successful in finding a P&H guy so I have learned to do more myself. Perhaps when I move the studio to Baltimore I will find the situation is reversed.

So ME, I am not sure where I am going with this but there must be a lesson somewhere. If it looks good, runs well, last a long time, makes you comfortable all year, squeezes the most out of every dollar to operate - there must be people that want that.

Steve Ebels_3

I'm laughing out loud at The Lyndonville Horror

OK maybe that's the wrong town..............but I am LOL at their price for a 2,000 aq ft house. $7,950???? C'mon, A Vitodens and an indirect will cost you more than that let alone adding maybe a two temp setup or a couple towel warmers. Even if you go with the absolute cheapest condenser you can buy, the installed price is going to be double or better what those eggheads are quoting. But I have to remember that they are quoting this with no labor. It's DIY right? Still just condensing equipment and the right control setup will cost more than that without figuring tube, manifolds, insulation (I noticed they don't even mention that) near boiler piping done right, and all the other items they conveniently leave out........ Obviously, they are using regular cast iron boilers or worse yet, water heaters for the heat source. Niether of which are suitable for 2,000 sq ft of radiant floor efficiency wise.........

It is easy to see though how Joe Consumer, having visited their website about has a stroke when he gets a quote from a real live radiant heating specialist using good equipment. He's planning on 4-6 per foot and all of a sudden he's looking at this guy telling him $15 or more. No wonder Joe C thinks we're a bunch of rip off artists instead of radiant heat artists.

The best advice I can give to all the Joe C's out there in internet land is, the more you can learn about what you're dealing with, the better you'll be able to sort the wannabe's from the one's who really care.

If only I didn't have a conscience, I could advertise like that too.

Boston

\"homeowner\" has seen some interesting

stuff:

1. I spent about 30 minutes trying to explain to my p&H guy why lever faucet valves operate differently than knobs....(he had put a knob on a lever cartridge - I did not know anything about it but figured out obviously there must be 2 different applications since a lever and knob turn in diff directions on cold) This guy wanted to bid on my replacement boiler - I passed.

2. Guy above used some type of rubberized connection on my hot water line under the kitchen sink - it let go in about 2 years, i came home to a foot of water in the basement and 10,000 dollars of damage(my insurance paid - the adjuster showed me the failed coonection and let me know an additional 2 dollars would have prevented the problem)

3. We are building a new house currently - I just realized the shower valves were not installed properly and stick too far out of the wall. Won't hurt function but looks like crap. Why not just do it right in the first place?

4. Best plumber I ever had(was a p/t inspector in a neighboring town) was a complete slop and would walk in the house with dirty (filthy) shoes over carpet, once replaced a valve on a radiator, looked like he was going for it right on the finished floor until we got a tarp from the basement. I'd think if you saw the inside of a 60 year old radiator once, you'd be more careful the subsequent times.

5. We had a leak in all 3 upstair baths in our last house - all related to poor plumbing practice.

So, my dad, who was an electrician, told me there is no such thing as a good plumber.


The folks on here sound like quite an exception, but in general, it doesn't look to be all that hard to be the tallest pygmy in this tribe.

So, perhaps, people expect what they have been getting. Sp price becomes the deciding vote.

Maine Ken

Not all the way to Baltimore!!

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[Deleted User]

It's sad but true in some cases. There are hacks out there. There are hacks in every profession, too. I've never had an operation but I know people who have and signed their lives away before hand. I wonder why? But getting back to the plumbing hacks, all a homeowner can do is not use them, report them to the better business bureau or state licensing department. The worst thing you can do to the hacks however is to tell everyone you know not to use them. Good help is hard to find even if you're paying top dollar and that is why the cost should not be the factor. Make the next guy spell out every thing he is going to do in writing. Get proof of his liability insurance from the insurance co. and make sure his workers have compensation insurance. Talk about possible worst case scenarios and who will be responsible for what and do this in advance of the work being done. A good contractor will do this automatically, but good help can be hard to find. You found it on this website though.

Steve Ebels_3

Your last statement is true

["So, perhaps, people expect what they have been getting. Sp price becomes the deciding vote."]

Just think about it and let your mind wander over the expectaions regarding price and what that price gets you.

Unknown

call the BBB?

Call the BBB? Was told that organzation is another big scam for public to think they are a goverment agency..... When mr and mrs know nothing threated me that they'll call about the work that has nothing to do with our company, I just shrug my shoulders and told them to go ahead as we are not a member of BBB and they won't do anything for u unless u give them sizable donations

Maine Doug_43

I just

got home from Bawlmor, 670 miles since this morning, er, yesterday morning. I sure will miss living here. Had fun with family though and will have to post pic of me and granddaughter both in Ducati T's.

[Deleted User]

One small step for mankind....

And it is the small steps that lead to a large path.

Here is the back and forth correspondence and final response from the webmaster at the DOE EERE site that was showing the rediculously low pricing.

BEGIN CORRESPONDENCE

Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:54 PM
To: Consumer Webmaster
Subject: Consumer Webmaster

Where did you get the price per square foot for radiant floor heating systems from? It is so far out in left field it shouldn't even be in print.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12590

Please reply. I am very interested in knowing.

From: "Consumer Webmaster"
To:
Subject: RE: Consumer Webmaster
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:28:24 -0600

Mark,

Thank you for your interest in energy efficiency and the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) Web site.

With regard to your questions below, all of the content on the Consumer Web site was developed from existing materials developed several years ago for the Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Clearinghouse(EREC).

These materials consisted of content from EREC, reference briefs, EREC fact sheets, and a DOE resource titled Residential Energy: Cost Savings and Comfort for Buildings by John Krigger and published for DOE. I unfortunately do not have specific references for each piece of information on the site. We did conduct extensive technical reviews of the site before publishing.

We do, however, occasionally find errors and content that is out of date--particular when it comes to prices. We always appreciate feedback from users who have concerns. If you could elaborate on your concerns and provide sources that will help in updating the content, I will do my best to make the appropriate changes.

Thanks again for your inquiry.

Sincerely,EERE Consumer Guide Webmaster


From: Mark Eatherton [mailto:markeatherton@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:40 PM
To: Consumer Webmaster
Subject: RE: Consumer Webmaster

I am a practing hydronic heatng contractor/instructor and have over 33 years experience in the field. The installed cost you are quoting is close to my direct costs of labor and material. It would be my suggestion that
the price reference be dropped completely , because we have consumers coming to us telling us what they read and how much we should be charging.

You should insert a clause that states " cost varies from location to location, and from one size project to the other, but the typical installed cost is significantly higher (2-3X's) than a typical forced air heating
system, however, the comfort levels are significantly greater than those associated with the equivilent forced air system."

This will avoid confusion and eliminate consumers being misguided, causing us a lot of pain and explanation.

Thank you for responding to my inquiry, and if I can be of additional assistance, please feel free to contact me.

Mark Eatherton



Mark,

Thank you for your suggestions. I have removed the reference to cost and changed it to read as follows:

"The cost of installing a hydronic radiant floor varies by location and also depends on the size of the home, the type of installation, the floor covering, remoteness of the site, and the cost of labor."

A brief explanation of why we phrased it this way:
While each type of system has advantages and disadvantages, in our case, the best basis for comparison is the energy efficiency of a system, which the page covers. We try to avoid subjective statements about
comfort that would not be well-received by contractors dealing with forced-air products. We also try to include energy cost savings when the technology we are discussing costs more than a traditional technology--essentially answering the question, "Why is it worth it to
spend more?" Because we don't currently have this data available, we avoided mentioning that the system may cost 2-3x as much, so as not to turn off prospective buyers.

I hope this change is satisfactory. Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns--it is so helpful to have the careful eyes of professionals who know and work with these products on a daily basis.

I appreciate your help.

Sincerely,
EERE Consumer Guide Webmaster

END OF EMAIL EXCHANGES.

See Wallies, you CAN Make a difference. All youi have to do is try, and be persistant.

Have a good week!

ME

Mike T., Swampeast MO

VERY GOOD MARK!

I won't however discuss just how much this response troubles me on MANY levels:

While each type of system has advantages and disadvantages, in our case, the best basis for comparison is the energy efficiency of a system, which the page covers. We try to avoid subjective statements about comfort that would not be well-received by contractors dealing with forced-air products. We also try to include energy cost savings when the technology we are discussing costs more than a traditional technology--essentially answering the question, "Why is it worth it to spend more?" Because we don't currently have this data available, we avoided mentioning that the system may cost 2-3x as much, so as not to turn off prospective buyers.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yes, I WILL Say Why That Response So Troubles Me

It's the GOVERNMENT mindset that Americans are ONLY INTERESTED IN CHEAP AND HAVE NO REAL INTEREST IN EFFICIENCY AND LITTLE UNDERSTANDING OF COMFORT!!!!!

Is there any damned wonder that a certain VP considers conservation a virtual nothing????

ALH_4

Realism and Pessimism

Mike,

That's too negative. Only 90% if Americans are that way. ;-) We have a Wal-Mart mentality. Make it somewhere else, ship it here, and we will buy it. Few stop to think of how we will keep the jobs to keep the income to keep buying the stuff that China makes. We need to keep manufacturing a few things. How come Nissan cant get enough manufacturing capacity here and General Motors cant get rid of enough? All I hear about on the news anymore anymore are layoffs. There is way too much short-term thinking in my opinion. Sorry, things like this get me on my soap box. If we do not end this type of thinking we will not be a superpower for long.

-Andrew

Mike Thomas_2

Qualify your customer

What happened to the idea of qualifying a customer. You know, ask about 4 questions, to see if this is a person you are willing to work with. I always start with 1) What are you looking for? If it is not what I do, the conversation is over. 2) Where is it located? Out of my area, conversation over. 3) How did you hear about us? If it was out of the yellow pages, conversation might be over. 4) Describe the project, square footage, number of floors, new or existing, etc. Then I give a rough ball park price range. If they are still interested at that point, we can talk further. But it all only takes 5 minutes or less. Let them know that you charge for design services. Let them know that you can stop by and look it over, but charge your hourly rate, and that you will answer all their questions about your specialty, you are the expert. No committment from them to buy your system, but that with the information that you will give them, they can then talk to the next contractor and ask all the right questions. Qualify your customers, don't waste time on the tire kickiers, and all those people that have not a clue what a good heating system costs.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

You're right about me Andrew. I'm having a VERY difficult time retaining 51% optimism.

Bob Sweet

Excellent way to show one man can make a difference.

Will it make a difference, dont know but you've made a difference in the publics perception of costs. Impressive!

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ALH_4

-

You're not the only one.

-Andrew

Weezbo

i am noticing some minor technicalities on the site since yester

day....am i the only one?

Paul Fredricks_3

you mean the slow loading of the pages?

Weezbo

for an example

this thread when i clicked on it showed 4 replies not 30+ and it was truncated in the middle of the fourth thread.

the page was slow to boot then there was check your internet connections page not found last night and this morning...

then when on the site and clicking on a post it threw me to a site with some electronic water magnetic seperating clamp on devise for boiler water etc....and some three part reset curve control for commercial boilers...nice and all buh definitely not what i was doing at the time.

Paul Fredricks_3

slow to load seems to be mostly what I'm running into. Must be a Host problem. Last time I had a problem I called the Host company and they fixed it. I'll drop them a line.

Paul Fredricks_3

They just told me they had technical problems today, but are almost done fixing them. Amazing how addicted to this site we are.