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ECR Geothermal

peep
peep Member Posts: 4
has anyone had any experience with this company and their DX Geothermal approach? while i was aware of geothermal, i was not aware of this variant.

Comments

  • Brian_24
    Brian_24 Member Posts: 76


    I have ten plus systems up and running and another seven in various stages of completion. Have not had any trouble with and they perform great. Have several systems doing domestic hot water as well. Good stuff IMHO.
    Brian
  • Jim Prisby
    Jim Prisby Member Posts: 9
    DX System

    What part of the country are you in?
  • Jim Prisby
    Jim Prisby Member Posts: 9
    DX System

    What part of the country are you in?
  • Jim Prisby
    Jim Prisby Member Posts: 9
    DX System

    Brian, what part of the country are you in?
  • Tom_35
    Tom_35 Member Posts: 265
    ECR heat pumps

    We have installed these units on new and retroft work and find that they provide excellent results. Some of the jobs are "air-based" and have no radiant heat, while others include radiant heating and on-demand domestic hot water.

    We are completing a custom home now that has 6 ECR heat pumps. This particular job is using wells, but we have also gone horizontal with very good results.

    I would recommend that you spend some time visiting with a contractor that has installed the equipment prior to jumping in with both feet and not have a good feel for the unit. Charging the system to it's optimum efficiency is pretty tedious.

    Overall though, it makes a great install.

    Tom Atchley
    Ft. Smith, AR
  • Brian_24
    Brian_24 Member Posts: 76


    I am located in mid-michigan and I am currently doing a house with five systems. We are doing domestic hot water and radiant floors as well as forced air. I am going with the vertical bores on this project.
    Brian
  • John MacGregor_2
    John MacGregor_2 Member Posts: 32
    ECR technologies

    I have been interested in this system for several years and have some questions of my own.
    Someone told me they were outlawed in Canada because the drop pipes could leak and dump refrigerant into the aquafer. I have no other knowledge of this.
    How do you prevent the copper drop pipes from scouring against the earth and wearing out?
    How do you protect from acidic soil and or stray current that can cause electrolysis?
    Can this system develop high temperature water, say 150*, so that it can be piped in conjunction with a boiler system operating at up to 180*?
  • Brian_24
    Brian_24 Member Posts: 76


    ECR has a cathode protection system availble if the soil ph warrants it. I have made 130' water with no problem. I don't think 150 is feasable. We grout the holes with a geothermal grout to seal against the aquifer and I am unaware with any issues with the scouring.I am contacting my rep regarding use in Canada.
    Brian
  • Michael Dilling
    Michael Dilling Member Posts: 10
    ECR Earthlinked DX systems

    Good morning to all interested in the ECR Earthlinked DX geothermal system. I am the rep/supplier to Brian Garno who has entered into this conversation. I have been a "GeoJunkie" my entire professional life starting 1977 when all we had were "warm water units", those designed for boiler/tower applications. I grew up through all the original research and development of plastic water loops and materials and in 1989 saw my first DX/ buried copper system manufactured by US Power called a GSDX. Being one to try new things, I became the first distributor of the GSDX machines and before they declared Bankruptcy in 1995, I had sold and installed through a network of dealers about 500 machines. Over the years I learned a great deal about the specific problems and issues the DX concept demands a designer/installer address if they expect a successful system. First, most people worry about the life and integrity of the copper buried in the earth. In most parts of the midwest and the US, the copper will outlast the homeowner by a thousand years if all issues are addressed. There are areas of that same region where the soils will set up an electrolysis and the copper will fail in about 10 to 15 years depending upon the strength of the current. The copper doesn't "rot" it is an ION transfer where the copper is being plated to another surface. This potential can be detected prior to an installation and an impressed voltage protection can be installed to assure the life of the copper. A question was asked about the movement of the copper in the earth and abrasion. As we all know, all materials experience dimensional changes with temperature. The key to controlling this is controlling individual loop lenths. Shorter lenghts have less movement and also less pressure drop. The single most important issue to address when installing a DX geothermal system is system sizing. The issue is of greater importance than with a closed plastic water based loop. When we install a DX system,we are depending on the mass of the earth we impact to be able to release and accept sufficient energy to meat the heating and cooling loads the building places on the system. The more closely and accurately we match the equipment size and the building the smaller the temperature swing we will impose on the earth we impact. Undersizing systems causes a wider swing in earth temperatures and the wider the swing in the performance of the refrigeration system. If we undersize the systems for the heating season and loads, we will force the refrigeration system to try and absorb the needed BTU's from the earth and continually lower the earth temperature and freeze the soil. When soil freezes it heaves and when it heaves it stresses the copper. After a few cycles of freezing and thawing, the copper actually "work hardens" and cracks. I will state right here that every loop I have seen fail has been due to undersizing and ground movement. Additionally, the original US Power GSDX did not use a vertical loop with copper tube being inserted in a bored hole to 100 feet deep. As a result, I have never had a vertical loop fail in all my years of working with the equipment. Only Horizontal loops have failed. Those were repairable but expensive and time consuming to do so. The oldest ECR machine in service was installed in Jackson Michigan in conjunction with Consumers Electric in 1987. That machine is running today with normal maintenance and no component failures of any kind. There is information on that system at the ECR Website, www.ecrtech.com. Responding to issues with Canada, There have been many ECR systems installed in Canada by several different dealers and distributors. To my knowledge, there are no restrictions on using the system. It is important to realize that refrigerant does not contaminate an aquifer. At the temperatures and pressures present in the earth at the depths used, refrigerant will vaporize and work it's way to the surface, leaving no trace of refrigerant. The Mineral and POE oils used in the systems are non toxic and the amount that could escape is extremely small < a teaspoon.
    I welcome any and all questions regarding DX geothermal systems.

    Michael Dilling
  • Michael Dilling
    Michael Dilling Member Posts: 10
    ECR Earthlinked DX systems

    Good morning to all interested in the ECR Earthlinked DX geothermal system. I am the rep/supplier to Brian Garno who has entered into this conversation. I have been a "GeoJunkie" my entire professional life starting 1977 when all we had were "warm water units", those designed for boiler/tower applications. I grew up through all the original research and development of plastic water loops and materials and in 1989 saw my first DX/ buried copper system manufactured by US Power called a GSDX. Being one to try new things, I became the first distributor of the GSDX machines and before they declared Bankruptcy in 1995, I had sold and installed through a network of dealers about 500 machines. Over the years I learned a great deal about the specific problems and issues the DX concept demands a designer/installer address if they expect a successful system. First, most people worry about the life and integrity of the copper buried in the earth. In most parts of the midwest and the US, the copper will outlast the homeowner by a thousand years if all issues are addressed. There are areas of that same region where the soils will set up an electrolysis and the copper will fail in about 10 to 15 years depending upon the strength of the current. The copper doesn't "rot" it is an ION transfer where the copper is being plated to another surface. This potential can be detected prior to an installation and an impressed voltage protection can be installed to assure the life of the copper. A questions was asked about the movement of the copper in the earth and abrasion. As we all know, all materials experience dimensional changes with temperature. The key to controlling this is controlling individual loop lenths. Shorter lenghts have less movement and also less pressure drop. The single most important issue to address when installing a DX geothermal system is system sizing. The issue is of greater importance than with a closed plastic water based loop. When we install a DX system,we are depending on the mass of the earth we impact to be able to release and accept sufficient energy to meet the heating and cooling loads the building places on the system. The more closely and accurately we match the equipment size and the building the smaller the temperature swing we will impose on the earth we impact. Undersizing systems causes a wider swing in earth temperatures and the wider the swing in the performance of the refrigeration system. If we undersize the systems for the heating season and loads, we will force the refrigeration system to try and absorb the needed BTU's from the earth and continually lower the earth temperature and freeze the soil. When soil freezes it heaves and when it heaves it stresses the copper. After a few cycles of freezing and thawing, the copper actually "work hardens" and cracks. I will state right here that every field I have seen fail has been due to undersizing and ground movement. Additionally, the original US Power GSDX did not use a vertical loop with copper tube being inserted in a bored hole to 100 feet deep. As a result, I have never had a vertical loop fail in all my years of working with the equipment. Only Horizontal loops have failed. Those were repairable but expensive and time consuming to do so. The oldest ECR machine in service was installed in Jackson Michigan in conjunction with Consumers Electric in 1987. That machine is running today with normal maintenance and no component failures of any kind. There is information on that system at the ECR Website, www.ecrtech.com. Responding to issues with Canada, There have been many ECR systems installed in Canada by several different dealers and distributors. To my knowledge, there are no restrictions on using the system. It is important to realize that refrigerant does not contaminate an aquifer. At the temperatures and pressures present in the earth at the depths used, refrigerant will vaporize and work it's way to the surface, leaving no trace of refrigerant. The Mineral and POE oils used in the systems are non toxic and the amount that could escape is extremely small < a teaspoon.
    I welcome any and all questions regarding DX geothermal systems.

    Michael Dilling
  • Michael Dilling
    Michael Dilling Member Posts: 10
    Higher water temps.

    The question about high water temps is one we get often. The simple answer is no, not with R-22 and R410A. Those refrigerants can't get that hot. However, ECR is sending some equipment to the UK that uses R134-A. While it is like old R-12, its not as efficient as R-22 and R410A, it can achive 140 degree temps with reliability. I guess if you are willing to sacrifice some efficiency for some temperature gain, you might consider it. In most all the projects we do these days both for domestic hot water or even radiant floor, 125 degrees is plenty hot.
    Mike
This discussion has been closed.