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Burnham

Mad Dog_2
Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,697
products, and I would do so WITHOUT hesistation. Just waiting for the right project. Burnham and Glenn Stanton are top-notch Chip, that was a low blow. Mad Dog

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Comments

  • Cunner
    Cunner Member Posts: 8
    New Products

    Looks like Burnham's on the move, I see they have a bunch of new products out like the PVG, SCG, MPO and a new Mod/Con. Any one have any experiences? I also hear they may have a few more on the way.Nice to see one of the U.S. manufacturers step up!!
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    installed

    I recently installed one of the MPO's for a customer. He absolutely love's it. Quiet, well designed and well thought out for cleaning and future service.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Yes

    Quiet, well designed and well thought out .... and totally ripped off from Buderus.

    Nice.
  • It's Always Easier

    to make stupid and uninformed comments like that one when you can come to sites like this and hide behind a bogus e-mail address! Once again I must state that if you have never closely looked at nor installed an MPO boiler then you would know that there is absolutely no truth to that comment!

    This year has been one of the most exciting years in Burnham's history which goes back to the days when Abe Lincoln was not president yet! We have introduced or will be introducing more new products this year than ever.Yet even more to come later this summer and fall!

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Cunner
    Cunner Member Posts: 8
    I've said it before

    Chip,
    I wasn't aware Buderus created the 3-pass boiler, that's a insanely misinformed comment. Are you so sure Buderus didn't " Totally Rip That Off " from somebody else accross the pond?
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    ...ah, details...

    ... but seriously, it is nice to see more and more US manufacturers smelling the coffee and bringing out new product or having someone else private-label appliances for them to cover more heating systems, increase efficiency, etc. The MPO has some neat features that Glenn was able to show me in his merry demo van.

    ... the more options/appliances that customers and installers can choose from in this market, the better. More competition will lead to lower prices and higher quality.
  • Cunner
    Cunner Member Posts: 8
    Yeah.... Yeah....

    ....that's it, Buderus evented the Widget and came up with bottled water!!
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    Working for an oil company

    Working for an oil company I get to see everyone's products since we inherit everything. Buderus by far is the biggest source of problems. Their G 115 direct vent and the G 215 vented into a chimney is a guaranteed call back at least once a season to clean the garbage off the turbulator. This is either with a Riello or Carlin burner, setting up by the book and using test equipment. The Buderus answer is call us from the job site. My boss who will can anyone or their products f he has had a problem won't stop using Buderus but he did go on that free trip to Germany. Ken Secor used to say Superior Marketing will overcome Inferior Products every time.

    Leo
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454
    My Experience

    I'd recheck the calibration of my test equipment.

    We have MANY G215s out there with Riello's that have never experienced what you describe. Riello has a great troubleshooting guide that will help you set them up better.What color is the garbage on the turbulator? Black or Brown?
    We have no G115s out there yet. As to Carlin's, we do not use them with the Buderus boilers.

  • Guy_6
    Guy_6 Member Posts: 450
    Mils

    If I am not mistaken, John Mills came up with a 3 (or more) pass boiler when he invented the Mills Porkchop boiler back in 1853.
    For other manufacturers to realize the value that a smaller version could present to today's marketplace is only a benefit to all of us.
    Even being a Smith guy, I like the MPO- it reminds me of the two door American Standard boilers that really dominated the market here in the Northeast. As a matter of fact, Burnham bought A/S, therefore buying the bragging rights to that.
  • Cunner
    Cunner Member Posts: 8
    3-pass

    Very well put Guy! I guess by some of the statements you see here, marketing and perception truly does rule the roost.
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    Color

    Al,

    You are fortunate not to have the problems we have had. The color is brown. The test equipment varies depending which tech is there so that is ruled out and the problem happens with different techs. The problem happening with either a Carlin or Riello leaves the boiler as the common denominater. This is a common topic that comes up at Oil Tech Talk and I have seen it at the Buderus site also. We had the Buderus Rep out and although he is a great guy he had really nothing to add. He is a great diplomat as he neither slammed us or his company nor did he make an attempt at smoke and mirrors. If you have any suggestions they would be really appreciated, it is difficult speaking to a customer who has spent good money only to have repeat call backs. It really bugs me as I am so anal and by the book I even get harassed by co-workers, but they always ask for my anal reference material or specialty tools. Go figure.
    Again any suggestions are welcomed, Duh, I'm sitting here posting on a vacation day.

    Leo
  • John and Guy

    Three pass boilers have indeed been around for a long time in one form or another. Just because they seem to look similar in design does not mean that they are as some stated, ripoffs, of other companies equipment. I think that we all (manufacturers) are well aware of what makes each others equipment tick as well as what may or may not be wrong with it. I have a lot of respect for you Guy as you know and consider you both a friend in business as well as in person.I have never nor have I seen you step into these sites and make critical comments about anyone's equipment even when we both know that some of the wild claims they make are totally bogus. If you listened to some of their reps you would tend to come away brainwashed thinking that their sections had to be made of some rubber material to actually be that flexible as well as visualizing them truly raining inside with no discernable effects whatsoever. That's what non-conservative marketing is all about I guess and if that doesn't work, drop the price and ship them off to Europe for a week.


    Oh my gosh! Did I really say that? Well I guess I did! Have a great weekend!



    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Guy_6
    Guy_6 Member Posts: 450
    learned

    We're all in this together, Glenn and I appreciate the kind words. Show season's coming up---The first round is on me.

    GW
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    For a million bucks we invade Elbonia of the Dilbert comic strip

    Imagine if we sold used boilers: "Oh, this one belonged to an old lady who only drove it on Sunday..." That's a sales pitch at its worse, mind you, the customers are just as deceiving walking in only for free proposals, free quotes, free design, under the pretense of a big purchase.

    What matters much more than great product specifications and availability, is the understanding necessary to apply them in the best solution. Innumerable project characteristics and a multitude of products make the perfect match hard to find but it is worth it; the ages of forcing one square peg into every round hole we find are over (if they ever existed).

    How to go about this matchmaking business? First build trusting relationships with customers and suppliers where everyone is on an equal footing. We provide service, they provide money, who's helping who? It has to be an equal relationship, otherwise it won't work.

    Training goes a long long way into making distrust go away. Past this hurdle, we can all breathe a sigh of relief, open up, and go about business with a sound dose of common sense.

    Now, who did I steal these ideas from, I'm sure I'm ripping them off someone... For the most part, I know I am preaching to the choir here.
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
    Plagarizing

    Is the sincerest form of flattery. Ideas are usually an improvement on something that already exists. Being in this business since 1979, I think right now technology in our industry is being revolutionized and improved at lightning speed.

    Look at all the technological advancements and labor saving materials now being utilized. Manufacturers are raising the bar and it's very exciting. I sold Burnham for years and people like Glenn & Dave(rep) help make the line what it is today, top shelf.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    the MPO is a good boiler.

    it looks real clean and pipes out the back like a Viessmann or Buderus.

    the combustion designe was recognized quite a while ago,not specific on the date... however i'd hazard a guess it was many centuries ago..
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Buderus

    Leo, here is a pic of a properly installed direct vent G115 with a riello. This set up performs like a champ. I was there the other day and the owner showed me his oil bills. This boiler barely needs a cleaning. The only thing I dont like about the install is that we dont have the right oil filter at the burner.

    In 15 months, he used 458 gals. of oil. The house is copper fin, decent insulation normal size house. This has to to with the outdoor reset.

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  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    Ted

    Ours are set up like you show with the exception of the Logomatic Control. I am assuming (dangerous) that you do not use the vent with the exhaust and inlet in the same tube. Ours run clean and efficient but the turbulator corks up causing a lock out/service call. The cost of the call offsets the savings. These are set up by the book, do you do anything different? The 115 on a chimney are fine but not direct vent.

    Leo
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Vent

    "I am assuming (dangerous) that you do not use the vent with the exhaust and inlet in the same tube."

    Do you mean a concentric vent kit?

    We go two separate penetrations.

    We dont do anything different, just by the book. There may be a slight variance in the numbers, but nothing drastic.

    This is an old pic.


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  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    G215

    I found this one yesterday. It wasnt our install. I have to look at the install manual since I havent installed a G215, but there may be a problem with this one. I dont think the metal tape is rated for high temp. and the vent may be too big. I have to look this one up.

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  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454


    Leo,
    I'm also in the office on a Saturday..

    According to what I was taught, and I believe appears in the Riello Troubleshooting Guide (can't find the darn thing).

    Black on the turbulator is (obviously) not enough air.
    Brown on the turbulator is too much air.

    If I find the guide, I'll fax it to you if you email me your fax number.

    I too am hustled out of the boiler room "so we can finish". And then when the poop hits the blades... "could you come bail us out? The boiler won't fire. Oh, and could you bring your (special) tools?"
    Soon they will learn to do things on an orderly manner.

    I will also ask around here to see if others are having problems as you describe. Good Luck.

    Al Corelli
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454


    Ted,
    Where'd you get the bracket for the oil filter?
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454


    Is there a tape that is rated for high temps?
    What do we look for on the label?
  • Joe Grosso
    Joe Grosso Member Posts: 307
    Boilers

    If Burnham & Weil had these designs 20 years ago, the oilheating world would have been a much better place.

    Who ripped off the pin boiler?? :)

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  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 998
    Leo/Al

    I was taught to set air by the book, and adjust tubulator for smoke if Black on turbulator move foward and if brown move back, was taught that both at Riello and Carlin

    Bruce
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    I too have been taught

    I too have been taught to move the turbulator. What ever we do then getting good readings with our test equipment still leads to a corked up turbulator.

    Al, are you referring to the Card/Flo chart Riello gives out?

    Leo
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    We also use

    We also use the system like you do with the two penetrations.
    I can never understand why tape is used if there is a chimney.

    Leo
  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    Full Circle? Guy?

    Interesting perspective. But, I'd like to see JR's 2,5,10 year vision for his product line. What does the future hold for pin boilers, Res. and Comm. Will Smith be the last one standing, and on how many legs? Do you see a shift beginning in the Comm. Spec market? Are these fair questions?

    Jed
  • Joe@buderus_2
    Joe@buderus_2 Member Posts: 302
    Burnham

    Improvements that benefit the customer, industry and enviroment should be applauded no matter who the manufacture. Raising the bar benefits everyone. Proper installation and set up is required no matter what equipment is being used. I haven't seen much of the MPO, but have the highest respect for Glenn Stanton. Continue the effort Glenn and best wishes for your continued release of new products.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Leo

    9 times out of 10, I find the problem is not the burner or boiler but in the flue. Usually too large. In nearly all cases a corrctly sized liner has settled the boiler down beautifully. A flue that's too large for the appliance connnected to it can't maintain steady draft conditions and you'll find that your combustion test seems to change from one visit to the next. If you find that your old burner settings somehow don't provide good readings when you go back, odds are that the draft has changed.
  • Guy_6
    Guy_6 Member Posts: 450
    Late

    Sorry- Missed a day in this post, Jed. I, too, would like to know what Mr. Reed has in store for Smith. We have managed to get some great new product out in the Hydrotherm line with the KN series, and I hope that is just a beginning for Mestek in the future.
    The pin type boilers have been a solid line for us, with efficiencies for the oil fired (Series 8) remaining in the 86% range. The commercial pin boilers have been durable, and we have seen a marked increase in sales for the 28HE, the high efficiency version of the stalwart 28.
    As for the future-only time will tell.
  • Lee_3
    Lee_3 Member Posts: 17
    Are SCG and PVG available in New England yet ??

    The Burnham site says they will be availble every wher in Feb. Are they available in NE yet?

    Plan to replace an old over sized atmospheric, wanted to go US , now have a choice and a listed contractor near me. Should I go with the sealed combustion in my 38 year old house or Power Vent?

  • Lee

    The PVG and SCG bpoilers are rolling into the inventories of the New England distriutors as we speak. It may take a little longer with some than others due to their preexisting inventories of the 2PV and Spirit boilers. The PVG and SCG are total reworks of these boilers to offer the installer greater venting distances, more boiler sizes, many more venting options along with more refined gas trains, controls and blower assemblies. These boilers were introduced into the "gas only" markets such as the western regions first and more recently to New England.

    From all I hear the folks out west are loving them as well! The PVG and SCG boilers also have premade "plug and play" harnesses for a low water cutoff and auxillary high limits. For a minimal price difference it would always make more sense to installed the sealed combustion type of boiler due to the outdoor air being piped directly to the boiler. This way things such as Bathroon and Kitchen fans as well as countless other things that are trying to take air out of the house will not have any negative effects on combustion air. Hope this helps.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454
    Yes, I think that's it.

This discussion has been closed.