CO Deaths: Ridiculous

Steamhead (in transit)

http://www.delmarvanow.com/customerservice/contactus.html

It's time to flood them with letters- maybe they'll wake up and smell the stench, but if they don't, at least we tried.

And here's the link to the MD State Fire Marshal's site:

http://www.firemarshal.state.md.us/

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John R. Hall

What are these people trained to do?

This story is tough to swallow:

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060705/NEWS/607050324/-1/NEWS01

Note this paragraph:

"However, paramedics apparently did not recognize the group's symptoms of severe headache and nausea as carbon monoxide-related, and the group was taken to Atlantic General Hospital as the Boughters laid unconscious and dying a few feet away."

I shake my head in wonder that we have paramedics who aren't trained to save lives. Sorry, this one really ticks me off.

Steamhead (in transit)

That should end up in court

From the way the article reads, the Ocean City paramedics really dropped the ball. In their business there are certain standards of care to be provided. One of these is to check the scene for any hazards, as anyone who has taken CPR or first aid training should know.

I would assume that the lady gave her room number to 911 when she called- twice. They apparently did not get this information to the paramedics, otherwise why did they miss the two people who later died?

As usually happens when their people screw up, the (alleged) public-safety community has closed ranks instead of cleaning house. These clowns really need to lose a lawsuit regarding this mess.

Yet another black eye for Maryland...... Stay away from O.C., you might not get out alive.

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Bob Harper

inconsistencies

John, upon reading the related articles surrounding this case, the time line does not make sense. If they called EMS at 01:56 am, what happened to that response? It states they were transported to the ER later that morning. Then there is some confusion as to when the dead were found. Also, it discusses the neighbors being transported to the ER, diagnosed and treated for food poisoning, and released. Only once the deaths were discovered were these people contacted and properly diagnosed with CO poisoning. Then it says two were flown to Shocktrauma in Balt. for a ride in the hyperbaric O2 chamber.

As a retired paramedic who field diagnosed and transported many victims to HBO, I find this shocking. Paramedics have such things pounded into them. They are generally considered Chicken Little because we were forever suspecting things everyone else scoffed at.

Before we pass judgement on this case, I suggest we get the facts straight. Not only does the timeline not make sense but they still haven't found the source of the CO ( car left running maybe?).

I wouldn't single out the paramedics as a licensed physician in the ER misdiagnosed several victims, too. Also, we don't know if these were, in fact paramedics or just EMT's. Lots of questions and few answers.

However, to agree with you, all of the medical community needs a reality check on CO.

With the spot reading from the Fire Dept. at 85 ppm, how much good do you think an off the shelf UL2034 alarm would have been? We'll never know.

Bob Harper

Praise EMS in OC, MD?

http://www.delmarvanow.com/worcester/stories/20060629/2302599.html

See if this doesn't get your goat!

Gee, does this sound like the local paper trying to cover this mess up? In another article, they claim the Fire Dept. evacuated the bldg. at 2am, yet the first article said they called at 01:00am then again at 01:56 with no mention of that response.

BTW, OC spelled backwards is CO!

Rest assured, there will be one helluva investogation on this and a duzy of a court battle. I wouldn't trust the local paper to publish anything remotely resembling the truth. This smacks of "Jaws" when the mayor didn't want word of the shark leaking out ruining the seaon. If you read other articles, you'll see they've had quite a few deaths there in the last week from drownings to plan crashes and of course CO. Keep an eye on the MD State Fire Marshal's Office for a statement. This one will get ugly.

Larry (from OSHA)

Bob your points are good

but from my experience, you can't put any stock in the newspaper for accuracy in timelines and such. Having the media just report the incident is an accomplishment and any details must be viewed as questionable. In the fatality case that I'm working on now, the media got most of it wrong when it came to the details. It's just the way that is. What needs to be improved upon, in my opinion, is the recognition of CO poisoning and all the related clues that go with that. Emergency responders have a lot to deal with and CO is merely one of those things (sad to say but true). With every event, the involved people will hopefully learn something that will help in the future.

My two cents worth.

Larry

Steamhead (in transit)

Bob, this seems typical

someone in the O.C. fire department has apparently bought or otherwise coerced an editorial. That newspaper ought to be ashamed of its actions. Where are the descendents of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein when we need them?

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S Ebels

Just more proof

More proof that 99% of the population, doctors and EMT's alike, are nearly completely ignorant of CO, how it occurs and what makes it happen. It's often diagnosed after every other thing has been looked at and even then it's discovered more by accident than really searching for it. Makes you wonder how many cases of the "flu" are really CO each year. CO is probably the most preventable cause of poisoning death in the US.

Leo

Call Backs

Emergency Responders see the worst of society on a regular basis, things the average person will either never see or see maybe once in a life time. Arriving at a scene they have to take in their surroundings, attempt to determine the cause of a problem then treat the victim quick enough to save their life. How many combustion professionals miss CO yet we expect these people to pick right up on it. There may not have been any tell tale signs and these people treat victims without the value of lab tests. Granted they are dealing with life and death but these people have call backs just as we do. Yet we want to cruicify them for being mortal.

JMO,
Leo

Yes I was a Police Officer for 22yrs in a prior life.

Steamhead (in transit)

Your department must have been better than most

all we hear about in Maryland is one scandal after another. If it was one of us, we'd lose licenses and lawsuits. Why should they be treated any differently?

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Maine Ken

As another retired Police Officer, only the scandals and screwups are worthy of public notice. All the good that happens on a daily basis is completely disregarded.

I am NOT defending or condemning what transpired here. I do not have enough info to pass judgement.

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Mad Dog_2

I offered to do free Co Class for the Local Fire Dept

a few years ago.....NOT INTERESTED! Whta could "a plumber know that they didn't." Most people react after the fact instead of being proactive. Mad Dog

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Jim_19

Put a sock in it !!!

I've been reading this board for years and gotten some good advice at times. Right now, most of you who have posted deserve a good thrashing.

Right now, there are no facts. There are only several very badly reported stories. You are ready to crucify the FD response and no one has yet even identified the source of the CO or pinned down the correct call times and responses.

In a perfect world the presence of CO would have been caught immediately. It was evidently missed by both the EMS crew and the ER staff. Let's learn why before we jump on our high horses.

From past history, I suspect very strongly that we should look into lynching the "heating professional" who installed the pool heater. That's been a typical source of CO poisoning in motels and why bother to wait for evidence?

Would that be appropriate?

Mark Hunt

I agree Larry


I have read thousands of news stories on CO poisoning and most are frustrating reading to say the least.

The people reporting these stories have even less knowledge than the first responders and it shows in their articles. Editors play a big role in the final product as well.

If anyone has ever been to the scene of an accident or fire, you know that the emergency personel are NOT concerned with giving interviews. Their job is to get the situation under control as quickly as possible. A reporter asking questions is probably going to get hurried answers with no clear explanation. JMHO.

That said, first responders are supposed to assess the situation accurately in order to decide the best course of action. A misdiagnosis on thier part and incorrect action could put people in great danger or even get them killed.

I posted a story a while back about a family that was poisoned by CO. They were told by the fire chief of the responding company to drive themselves to the hospital to be checked for CO poisoning. I kid you not.

Mark H

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[Deleted User]

Unmistakeable evidence...

I used to work with a guy who was a mortician/coroner part time. He said CO poisoning is REAL obvious. The decedents are BLUE, like a smirf...

Never seen it personally, but this guy had no reason to misguide me.

ME

John R. Hall

No lynch mob mentality

I'm not ready to roast anyone yet, including journalists. But if I were made to look foolish in the press, I would sure as hell ask for equal time to refute a story. If the OC EMS department feels misrepresented, they should speak out now and quiet down the angry mob.

Brad White_9

Sometimes cyanosis occurs

but not always. Often the body will be pink as the blood becomes a very bright almost cherry red. There is still oxygen present but the bonding of the CO to the hemoglobin seems to cause a "bloom" in color, sort of a last gasp as it were. What O2 remains is not transported being displaced by the stronger bonding of the CO to the hemoglobin.

As in the root of the word cyanide, "cyan", a bluish cast is often present but this depends on the physiology of the victim. The cyanosis is apparent after all residual O2 is depleted whereby the peripheral tissues (fingers, toes, lips) become bluish and this spreads to the core/trunk. Not pretty.

Tim_33

That is called...

earning your pay. It is NOT outstanding or of particular note when a professional does what they are paid to do. The screwups and scandals are noteworthy because they should never occur. Exception service, going above and beyond IS always noticed, but if that's what public servants are lloking for in the job, they picked the wrong one. Did you ever thank the cook at McDonalds for making you quarter pounder right?

Steamhead (in transit)

Sometimes it takes an angry mob

to force long-overdue change. This may be one of those times.

For those of you who aren't familiar, Ocean City is a beach town whose livelihood depends on the summer tourist trade. The town still relies on a volunteer fire company which I believe also provides ambulance service, though they do have their own little police department. In the fall and winter there's very little going on there- which explains their small-town attitude- but in the summer the town's population grows about four times. So they focus on packing people in during the summer and hope nothing goes wrong.

This event will probably hurt O.C. from an economic standpoint, but IMHO they've had it coming for a while.

Jim, the low quality of journalism is one problem here. It might be due to whoever owns that paper being in bed with local politicians and dictating editorial policy to favor them. This is part of what lets the fire/EMS and the town government close ranks and attempt to cover things up. In our business we couldn't get away with that, so why should they?

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JCD

Please post again - the best detectors

I know I have read it before here, yet like most of us, procrastinated on purchasing one.
Please re-post the good CO detectors. I have stood in the aisle at the big box store and heard staff give advice in several different and conflicting ways, and then I've walked away saying, “I’ll do it later”.

For the homeowners like me who visit here, please repost the CO detectors that actually are worthwhile. I’ve read about these tragedies, on this list too many times to procrastinate any longer. If I came home and found my wife had succumbed to CO poisoning after reading about it hear… and had not done anything ….
Please re-post them. Jim

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Misdiagnosis of acute CO poisoning is VERY common. Not at all uncommon for a call with paramedics delivering to hospital with victim shortly discharged right back to the place with the CO!!!

By all accounts it very closely mimics the sudden onset of "stomach flu" that nearly every one of us has experienced in their life. Unusually red skin is a great indication, but unfortunately it only occurs rarely with a pallid (pale) appearance MUCH more common--again like you look when you get the flu.

A three-hour window after removal from the environment is often mentioned for the ability to test for CO poisoning. If diagnosis is not made, you either die or appear to recover significantly in that period...

From what I read, it seems that correct diagnosis by first responders is usually made when a source of CO is immediately identified.

Chronic CO poisoning is far more insidious and even more difficult to diagnose.

Joannie_11

But,

There are tip jars at the Dunkin' Donuts counter, so we can thank them for doing what they're supposed to do...and sometimes they even get the order right.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Lebanon

isn't too far from here & Mike was in OC with his friends shortly after the incident in question. When we first read about it, Lois asked me what I thought caused the CO. One of three things: a pool heater, water heaters or car/truck exhaust. I just read about another incident where a family parked their running car in the garage, closed the doors and forgot to turn it off!?! We've chased CO incidents that were traced to homeowners garages where they did not leave a care running - the short burst of CO was enough via an open doorway or by seeping in through infiltration.

So far, I haven't seen any articles pinpointing the OC CO cause.

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Steamhead (in transit)

According to the Days Inn site

that hotel does have a heated pool. It also has on-site parking but doesn't say if it's a garage-type structure. However, this goes way beyond the Days Inn. I suspect we'll never know the truth from the locals, maybe the Fire Marshals can break thru their stonewalling.

Meanwhile, none of us would tolerate this kind of incompetence from our own employees, subcontractors etc. We'd fire them right away! It would certainly be appropriate to boycott O.C. until we know what happened to produce the CO and they've housecleaned the ambulance service and hospital (which is just across the Sinepuxent bridge at Berlin).

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Bob Harper

in search of the truth?

I think we all would like to know the real facts in this case just as we would with any CO case. The problem with that is the true facts are determined in a court of law. Until then, we are left to speculation, second hand accounts, and anecdotal evidence.

As for physical signs of CO poisoning, let me share those of a veteran paramedic:
the classic "cherry red" skin coloration attributed in CO poisoning was seen in only a handful of the cases I ever responded on. 100% of those patients were dead. I never saw the red coloration in a living victim.
Cyanosis is a typical sign of hypoxia or lack of oxygen as noted previously. However, due to the subtle, insidious way CO sneaks up on you, your O2 sat. may be sufficient to mask cyanosis until the patient passes out.

The signs that someone is in distress with something are a red flag to health care providers and are taught from day 1: agitation/ restlessness is #1 for most any disorder. However, with CO, this may be masked as the poison sneaks up on its victim in essence tranquilizing them.
The tachycardia and tachypnea are seen in most any malady and only tell you to keep looking.
The color and perfusion of the capillary bed in the nails, eyes, and oral mucosa may be within normal limits with CO.
Vital signs, pulseox., and EKG may be unremarkable early on. Therefore, much of the field diagnosis is based upon subjective information ranging from patient symptoms to bystander testimony. (SOAP-subjective, objective, assessment, & plan). If these medics, whenever they arrived, weren't given much info, yes, they could have missed a lot. A bystander could have been playing Marcus Welby and blabbed to EMS about how they ate at a restaurant and complained of belly pain or some similar BS that can distract the real story. We are taught to have a high index of suspicion and rely on the SOAP model to guide your care. Honestly, I could make a case for several other maladies that could cause a hotel guest to feel sick and act confused. We weren't there and didn't hear or see what EMS did.

The response of EMS, the Fire Service, and the ER will all come out in some degree or another. Meanwhile, we are left to guess what the next act is in this drama. For instance, if there is a "house cleaning" at EMS, FD, or ER, this will be taken as an admission of guilt. If nothing is done and it is later proved in court there was gross negligence, then many more heads will roll.

I think the reporting by the local press was sloppy, sensational, and shameful. I hope the state authorities pour over this mess and come up not only with those at fault, if indeed there are any, and publish recommendations.

For now, all we can do is monitor the situation.

Scott Gregg

Short version

Here is what I heard from a reliable local source. Let’s all listen for the official investigation but unit then, the “hearsay” below without names might make someone think twice on another job.

It was a certain popular 90+ boiler used to make hot water for storage tanks.

It was not installed properly and the vent and CA piping looked like drain lines snaking through the building for about 100’!

Either someone hit their head on the pipe that partially blocked the door to the mech room or it coughed, popping the exhaust pipe out of the rear of the boiler...as in disconnected.

All this will come out. Sounds like, Improper installation, negligence on the contractor’s part, and inspector who will fry, etc.

What we all do is way too important and those instructions must be followed ALWAYS! The nest time someone in a class asks about using more venting or fittings than allowed let them know about this. IT MATTERS!

It is not the EMT's fault. If the above proves true, it's the fault of the contractor who put in this system, and the inspector who passed it.

Steamhead (in transit)

That's true for the source of the CO

and the lack of proper inspection. I'm glad you were able to get and post this info.

But I have to disagree with your point that the ambulance personnel and the doctors involved should not share the blame for the deaths. True, they didn't mis-install the equipment, but it was up to them to check for any possible hazards at the scene and to diagnose properly at the hospital. They did neither properly, and people died. It's that simple.

CO poisoning has gotten plenty of publicity in the past few years. There is no longer any excuse for misdiagnoses such as these.

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S Ebels

I for one

I, for one, am not castigating the local EMS people in particular. Carbon Monoxide poisoning IS VERY HARD to pick up in its early stages because the symptoms mimic so many other maladies. What grinds me though is the general lack of knowledge about CO. Where it comes from, how it happens, why it happens etc. Many medical professionals simply attribute the mild symptoms to something else without ever thinking of CO or doing a blood test to determine if poisoning is occuring.

I think I told this here before but I'll share it again to illustrate what I am talking about.

A few years ago, I got a call from an older gent whom I had known for many years. He smoked about 2 packs of Pall Mall studs a day as long as I knew him and was in his upper 70's at the time. I had seen him wearing tubes and an oxygen bottle for the last two years before this incident.

He told me his "heater" wasn't lighting up right and would I take a look at it. When I got in his house I was flabbergasted to find that he was heating the place with 5 YES FIVE!, unvented propane fired heaters. The kind that have the open ceramic grid that glows orange when lit.The house had no other heat source whatsoever. I retrieved the Testo from the truck and measured a steady 10-12 PPM in everyroom of the house. All the while the old boy is sitting in his chair with his bottle and nose hose.

To make a long story short,I wound up replacing the unvented heaters with a couple direct vent units. I told the old boy to ask his doctor about his blood O2 level the next time he went in for his monthly exam. When I saw him later that winter he wasn't carrying his O2 bottle anymore. He related that his doctor couldn't figure it out but his lungs had seemed to suddenly start working better and told him he didn't need to be on O2 anymore. He told me that it had been 4 years since he felt as good as he currently did which was when he had put in all those unvented heaters after ditching the wood stove.

Well.....................GO FIGURE!!!!

Last I knew the old boy was still alive and kicking........without his O2 bottle and still burning those Pall Malls by the carton.

Steamhead (in transit)

But is

the doctor still practicing? Would you trust him after he "couldn't figure it out"? If it were me or my family he'd be in court for malpractice and fraud (in that he represented himself as knowledgeable). I'd be doing my best to make sure he couldn't hurt anyone else. Again, why should he be treated any differently from us?

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[Deleted User]

Yeah, that's the one...

except I think he referred to it as Cyanara, like the Japanese term for Adios MOFO...

Ain't nothing to mess with for sure.

Dirt naps last forever.

ME

Mark Hunt

The best detectors


There are only two detectors that I would have in my home.
Both offer low level protection, one alarms lower than the other.

They are the CO Experts and NSI-3000, the latter alarms at lower levels.

You can't buy the NSI-3000, they are available only through contractors that have been certified by NCI in CO testing.
The CO Experts model is available via the internet.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you find a trained and certified contractor in your area(if possible)regardless which of the alarms you purchase.

If the alarm sounds, who will you call? When one of these units goes off, it will not be a "false alarm". Who can you trust to locate the source? Who can you trust to correct the problem? You see from this thread that ignorance abounds when CO is involved. That ignorance is just as prevalent in the PHVAC industry. Sad but true.

Here's an example. A man is found dead in his home and CO poisoning was detrmined to be the cause. The source was a "faulty furnace" and a local HVAC contractor "fixed" it. Relatives staying at the home for the funeral were killed by CO coming from the "fixed" furnace. True story.

One more. I was called to a home where another HVAC contractor had "repaired" a CO situation that was caused by a bird's nest in the chimney. They removed the bird's nest and put the equipment back in operation. They never tested anything. I am called a few days later. Boiler producing 1873ppm CO diluted and spilling into the basement. The basement pressure had gone so negative that draft was impossible.

Point being, the alarm will tell YOU when there is a problem but your PHVAC contractor might not know what to do.

NCI has a "find a contractor" function on their web site here.

Hope this helps.

Mark H

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Brad White_9

Years ago

when I was in medic training with the ANG, (later became an EMT), we learned the easiest and most common, in fact universal Cause of Death (COD): Hypoxia.

Eventually, every animal dies of hypoxia, lack of oxygen, specifically delivered to cells. Hard to argue with that!

But the pathologist we had in training also said, do not be glib and ignore the bullet wound that caused shock, which stopped the heart, which, finally, caused hypoxia....

The COD is always a tree.... and the bullet in this case could be a water heater, automobile engine, lawnmower engine....

Jim_19

Expectations

At this point it looks like there may be an answer on the source of the CO. And no doubt, there will be litigation to determine who is "at fault" for the CO. It may be an installer, it may be the motel handyman, it may be the local inspector. We don't know and it will probably be a long time before the dust settles out and responsibility is finally determined.

At this point several posters with medical training and experience have given thoughtful and insightful explanations on how and why CO poisoning is so damn hard to identify. It's NOT incompetence or negligence to miss it. It mimics so many other medical conditions that are much more common, that those have to be ruled out first.

The only remaining question from the original article that I have not seen being addressed by anyone is the so called 911 call in the middle of the night. Since all dispatch centers tape all calls, that should be relatively easy to review and find out if it was received or not. Generally speaking, once the connection is made, a response is mandatory. My wild **** guess is that the woman thought she made the call but it never went through.

Steamhead, why would you assume that a family physician would know that John Smith has low levels of ambient oxygen in his home? The physician prescribed oxygen becasue of low blood oxygen levels. How is he expeceted to know that Mr. Smith is living with less than normal room oxygen? I share a lot of personal information with my physician but he's never asked me to measure the oxygen levels at home!

Jim

Steamhead (in transit)

Jim, it sure looks like

he assumed the gentleman's low oxygen was due to his smoking. I would bet that he never even bothered to ask about other possible causes.

The point is, nothing is going to change unless everyone involved- contractors, inspectors, ambulance and medical personnel etc. all the way up to the top of the chain of command, is held responsible for their actions. Until then we'll keep reading the same story over and over. I'm getting pretty sick of reading the same CO story over and over, especially when it's this close to home, how about you?

"Steamhead"

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S Ebels

That's the point

>I would bet that he never even bothered to ask about other possible causes.<


Most in the medical field never even consider CO until it's stareing them in the face. That tells me that it's not taught very well in med school and that they don't run into it often enough to keep it up on their radar.

If the rumors are true regarding the messed up venting. I am sad to say that I wouldn't have any difficulty believeing that.

Until the mechanical trades figure out how to get away from incompetent, low bid, hack and slash, burn and run types who either wittingly or unwittingly turn out trash jobs, we will continue to have more incidents like this. Especially as mechanical equipment becomes more complex.

The building owner in this case and the homeowners in some others also have to bear some blame due to the fact that they:

A: hired an incompetent because he was cheapest

B: Didn't take the time to educate themselves about what they were buying

C: Probably ignored regular annual maintenance which would have spotted the accident waiting to happen.


The soap box is now open.

Steamhead (in transit)

Then

the med schools are equally to blame. Many instructors in our industry carry insurance that covers "errors of omission", since such an error can hurt or kill someone and the instructor could be held liable. Why should medical schools be held to a different standard?

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Bob Harper

please post at the end of this thread so we don't overlook yours

They didn't even start teaching CPR to doctors until the mid-1980s! I used to teach the DOT Advanced Trauma Life Support Course to 3rd yr. residents. It is astounding what they don't know. The way medicine is being taught relies more on diagnostic tests and less on the laying on of hands. Now, factor in the insurance companies beat them up over what they'll pay for and you get less tests being run. Not due to medical incompetence but money.

We have been handed some speculation and again, until all the facts are in, that's all it is. However, what assumptions could be made about some things that should have been done (some of which may have in this case):
qualified technicians to install the combustion appliances and test them for proper operation. Competent inspection by the bldg dept. Required annual maintenance, inspection, and testing. Trained hotel staff. Trained medical staff and first responders. Proper CO alarms.

What if the CO came from a car left running? What is the pool heater is well away from the building but a breeze carried it into those rooms? How do you prevent those possibilities? What if an animal nested in the vent termination just after an annual inspection? We cannot prevent every possibility. The law expects us to safeguard against "reasonably forseeable risk of harm". Not all risks or all harm, just those reasonably forseeable. We don't have to be Gene Roddenberry or Nostradamus.

If I owned an HVAC company, I would be selling the need for annual inspection and testing as hard as I can. I would also institute a rigorous program of postview inspections and verification of the work done. Every combustion appliance should get a high end CO alarm with instructions on responding to alarms (don't ignore--get out and call 911).

Does anyone know of a service where hard wired CO alarms send a signal to a central monitoring station who calls the HVAC contractor? Sounds like an opportunity to me.


Side note: when everyone posts responses buried within a big thread like this, we miss your thoughts. Please keep posting at the tail end where we can keep track and not miss any new thoughts. Thx!

John R. Hall

Bob

You have some good thoughts and in a perfect world, HVAC contractors would push for more stringent training and testing. But in a perfect world we would have all contractors making a good profit because they charge a good price and can hire good workers because they offer good wages and benefits. It ain't gonna happen.

Luckily a lot of people who post here are very conscientious and care about their trade and the people they serve. These are the GOOD contractors. They will keep fighting the good fight as we all should do.

That being said, a more common solution and one that would be the easiest and less painful to implement is to have a federal law mandating CO alarms in ALL buildings, regardless of whether they are residential or commercial. I don't want to start a debate on make type of alarm, i.e. CO Experts versus off-the-shelf battery operated brands. Just having a working CO alarm is a first step and sometimes (unfortunately) the only step that some people will take.

Every service tech in the U.S. should stock his or her van with CO alarms and install them in every home or business. If a contractor doesn't want to take the time or expense to do it right, i.e. testing and training, maybe they can save some lives by installing a CO alarm.

Leo

A Long way to go

There is a long way to go. I got aware of the CO problems from Mark Hunt's crusade and there are times people give him grief for being so agressive. In my state, Massachusetts, CO detectors have been mandated because of a high profile death. My feeling, there will now be more calls because people who never knew will find out they have a problem. What do I hear, if an alarm goes off they can call the Fire Dept. Ok so the FD says there is a problem now fix the equipment do you even have a tester to check if it is running right? Oh no the FD can come back. There is a feelng that sticking ones head in the sand will absolve them of liability. In the 80's the media blitzed everyone with drunk driving awareness and all states clamped down with a vengance. It will take the same thing for CO awareness. I was taught CO from oil fired units never killed anyone and I believed it till I knew better. I get my chops busted because I don't want to work in new construction with unvented oil or propane units.

Leo

Jim_19

Updates on CO Deaths

Two interesting updates

http://www.baltimoresun.com/travel/beaches/bal-md.ocean26aug26,0,6665234.story?coll=bal-bayandbeach-headlines

"OCEAN CITY // A water heater whose detached vent pipe leaked carbon monoxide in a hotel room, killing a man and his daughter, was improperly installed, the state fire marshal's office said in a report."

"Phil Smeall, a boiler inspector for the Maryland Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation, conducted an inspection of the water heater July 12. "The run was way too long," he said."

Another case of poor writing. Was the run too long? Or was
the vent detached? Or did both conditions exist?


http://www.mdcoastdispatch.com/coinvestigation071406.html

"The June 27 incident was not the first time the Days Inn had a problem with faulty hot water heaters causing carbon monoxide problems for its guests. Just over a year before the June 27 tragedy, Ocean City emergency services responded to the Boardwalk hotel for a complaint about symptoms consistent with carbon monoxide poisoning and the source was identified as faulty hot water heaters in the basement of the facility.

"In March 2005, the Fire Company responded to the Days Inn for a victim complaining of carbon monoxide symptoms,” said Theobald. “The problem was traced to the hot water heaters and the property owners replaced those particular water heaters. After the 2005 call, they abandoned those hot water heaters and replaced them with new water heaters.”

The new water heaters installed after the March 2005 incident were still in place on the day of the tragic deaths three weeks ago. They have since been replaced by yet another hot water heater system, this time installed on the outside of the building and not in the basement. Town officials said on Monday the make and model of the hot water heaters at the Days Inn – the Munchkin 199 manufactured by Heat Transfer Products Inc. – are also used in several other hotels and motels in the resort."

Were the Munchkins the units that caused the deaths? Or were the Munchkins the replacements that are installed outside?

The 2nd article has lots of good information about the EMS response and the errors that they made.

Bob Harper

observations based on new articles

The latest articles provided by Jim detail the vent connector pipe being dislodged/ disconnected. If the pipe is properly installed, screwed together, and supported, this is virtually impossible to do. It sounds to me instead of just focusing on more and better CO alarms we ought to be catching these improper installations in the first place before anyone gets hurt. Mandatory inspections might reduce the incidence rate effectively but still have the CO alarms as backup. I wonder is there were any permits or inspections for those water heater replacements. The mfr. will spend money to defend but may get out of it if there are pics of vent connector dislodged and no mfg. defects found on forensic exam.

Amazing the paramedics did not check the address they were sent to, esp. since there were multiple rooms known to be involved and CO was suspected. Why in the hell wasn't the entire building cleared? Boggles my mind.

From the info. provided, it would appear there is a pretty good case for gross negligence against the hotel since this was their second offense for the exact same complaint and the installer of those water heaters is probably toast. Could be looking at jail time. EMS and the hospital will fork out $$ and those paramedics may be personally sued as well (malpractice).

As with all CO deaths, so preventable...