Hydronic Design Only Services (not contracting)

DanHolohan

I'd say that these folks would benefit by taking ads in Find a Professional. This would also help to support this site.

Thanks for understanding.

Barry E. LaDuke

I get asked frequently for...

Hydronic design only services.

I've been lurking at The Wall for years, so I know many of you do just that - providing complete heat loss calculations, component specifications, and schematics for the hydronic systems.

My situation: I have a number of heating contractors in the Northwest who frequently ask me if we do that type of design. As many of you know, we don't. We provide a shop drawing to aid in the framing of the Warmboard panels and another for the tubing installation, but we leave the system design to the professionals. Unfortunately, many of the professionals are hoping we could do the rest of the system for them.

As was detailed in another thread, there are a very small number of wholesalers who can provide this service to their customers, but even they are diminishing in number.

I would like to hear from designers who can help radiant contractors who may not have the manpower, the time, or the software savvy to design a complete system from scratch, but who are looking to step-up to a higher standard without having to staff a designer right away.

I spoke to one particular contractor last week whose work I had seen in the field - clean and professional, and whose sheet-metal shop was first-class, but who was crying loudly for some help in providing help with hydronic design. He was running "rule-of-thumb" for most of his load calcs (thank goodness hydronics is somewhat forgiving), but was anxious to dial his radiant business up to the same standard as his HVAC side. He's willing to pay to have someone shore up the radiant design function for him, while maintaining a high standard of workmanship for installation.

I promised him I would present his need anonymously here and forward any contacts to him for his follow-up. His cry for help echoed many others I have heard before, so he won't be the only one to benefit.

If you offer hydronic system design services to installers, please drop me a quick note with your contact information and a short description of the services you offer.

Is it OK to post the contact stuff in this thread? Or is it too blatantly commercial?

Barry E. LaDuke
BarryLaDuke@Warmboard.com

Josh_10

Barry we are located in the Nortwest about an hour north of Seattle. We have two engineers one electrical and one mechanical. We sell designs all the time. Mostly to plumbers or sheet metal guys. We provide them exact tubing layouts, electrical drawings, equipment specs, and even installation instructions. We guarantee our designs and we are insured in case of flaws in our designs.

Alot of times we build custom panels and even do a part of the project. For instance if there is a plumber who doesn't understand controls we will do the controls @ our standard service rate provided the plumber bought our design.

Home owners also buy our designs and use them as a spec for competetive bids.

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Paul Pollets

Question??

Hi Barry, glad to see you're a Wall Lurker.

If Warmboard only does a layout schematic, how do you remove yourself from liability for heat loss? What if the Living room is 1500SF and gas a 90ft glass wall facing SW--9 ft high? How do you presume to heat the space without supplemental heating?

Is it the contractor's responsibility to confirm all calcs?

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heatboy

As a contractor..............

..there is absolutely no way I would install someone else's design without having a seperate contract written stating that I am relieved of all liability if the system doesn't perform. Even then, don't think I would do it.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

I'm with you pal

> ..there is absolutely no way I would install

> someone else's design without having a seperate

> contract written stating that I am relieved of

> all liability if the system doesn't perform.

> Even then, don't think I would do it.

>

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> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 304&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

I'm with you pal!

We do our own designs based on a heat loss calculation that, again, we perform. By doing the homeowrk, we own that job's needs and can react appropriately as the inevitable changes occur - like floor coverings or insulation.

Not doing that homework means the installers are working without sight - blindly stumbling along a path set down by someone who, normally, hasn't been and won't be on site to witness any oddities, omissions and deviations from the prints.

In the final analysis, it's the installer's responsibility to ensure the work is performed properly and that the products utilized are installed correctly with safety and economy of operation at their level-best.

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Wayco Wayne_2

I feel the same

A couple of years ago I had an offer to fill an independant hydronics designer role. I even went as far as having a Lawyer write up a list of disclaimers if I did. It was attractive to me because I don't do well hiring and managing employees. It's not my thing. That together the aches and pains that come with getting more mature, it sounded good to have someone else do the physical side of things. I opted not to do it because so much would be out of my control. I would have been bald from tearing my hair out in no time flat. I like knowing that everything has been done correctly. WW

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Josh_10

Very true Wayne. It is a labor of love.. We really have to stay on top of things but it has been successful for us. We have had to really do some serious HTML programming in our CAD programs so we can do quick changes for floor coverings and other changes.

We have had a few plumbing contractors mess up the controls pretty bad and try to blame us but our diagrams are fool proof. We just mark in red what they did wrong and they have to pay us for our time to fix things.

We have worksheet that the installer fills out which covers all floor coverings, wall, floor and ceiling layers. That is all we back up. If there is a single change we don't guarantee anything. It hasn't come up yet though.


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Barry E. LaDuke

Manufacturer vs. installer

Hi Paul:

Good to "see" you again.

You asked: "Is it the contractor's responsibility to confirm all calcs?" In a nutshell, yes. Just as you would with any other heating platforms besides Warmboard.

We are simply a manufacturer, much like the other manufacturers whose products you buy. We know what our panels will produce, but we don't know what the need is for individual applications. That's your job.

Our work is simply a "shop drawing" that aids in the proper installation for the field crews. It is not a replacement for a good system design and has never been "sold" as such. Think of it as the jig-saw puzzle map.

It is a happy day for us when our product goes into a project where there is a competent radiant heating contractor who does the heat calcs and determines how much heat needs to go into any given space.

Addendum: Regarding the supplemental heating question, we all know that any floor that is heated to the 85 degree maximum surface temp will produce around 30 BTU/ft2/hour. Any heat loss that shows a load above that will require supplemental heating, regardless of whether it is Warmboard or some other substrate. The radiant contractor is in the best position to know whether supplemental heating is called for, not a material manufacturer. Warmboard has never claimed to carry a load beyond the max surface temp (we can, but not without over-heating the occupant's feet!).

Barry E. LaDuke

Where are all the

Installers like you guys?

But as I noted in my original post, there are some worthy folks trying to get into the field, and have the hands-on expertise, but need a little help on the front-end (design).

I'm sure I've seen other posts around the 'net and at the RPA site regarding the lack of qualified radiant designers and contractors around the country. Not that there aren't ANY, but in some regions there aren't enough! So perhaps we can find a temporary bridge to help ramp the new ones into the field, like providing them decent designs and specifying components.

I think it might be a good niche for some who LOVE the design side to provide the necessary specifications for the hands-on guy in the field to follow. Besides, even you folks with in-house designers - isn't there a division of labor between the CAD guy and the pipe-wrench guy? Would you trust your drafter to actually install the controls? (I know some of you will answer that they are one and the same person!)

Unknown

What did you do the first time you installed a radiant system?

siggy

hydronic system design

Barry,

We provide complete engineering design and documentation services for hydronic systems. Our website www.hydronicpros.com describes what we offer and has some downloadable PDF files of project documents. We develop a scope of work, deliverables, time frame and quotation for each project.

siggy

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

followed supply house design

and ended up with a huge mess! A non-functional design that yielded poor performance. Fortunately, it was my own home, so I had a wee bit of extra time to re-do things. But, it was such a mess, I felt I had two choices: get the **** out of Dodge and avoid radiant like the plague; or learn all I could about radiant heating and install systems that perform at their best.

BTW, that particular designer is still giving out lousy advice to unsuspecting contractors. Fortunately, he's the exception - not the norm - and most supply house designers give out fairly good advice.

I've been hired as a consultant on a number of under-performing radiant systems and have recognized that lone designers mental handywork. In both cases, the folks who hired me were surprised I could identify the designer within seconds of arriving on site.

Where are all the designer/installers like us? We're out there and ready to tackle jobs where the budget permits doing the work correctly. Low-baller budget jobs or jobs where the low bidder will get the nod are not typically where you'll find us working.

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Barry E. LaDuke

Respectfully....

tipping my hat to you, sir. Your reputation (and your firm's) precedes you.

Thank you for chiming in.

I hope others who haven't posted yet are not intimidated... ;-)

hr

I don't see a problem installing others design

as long as I know their skill level and reputation. I'd have no problem installing a Sigenthaler, Bean, or Dr. Viessman design

Actually any contractoer or installer should have some basic design knowledge before installing IMO. It's called a license in the plumbing and mechanical trades.

Which brings up the point should all radiant installers be either licensed plumbing or mechanical contractor?

Actually in my area all commercial projects, and even some residential in various towns, must have a licensed engineer, design, seal, and stamp the plans before a permit is issued. It's pretty easy for a skilled, experienced radiant contractor to pick up any mistakes in others designs, BEFORE they are installed

hot rod

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