Mess I've gotten myself into - double post from RPA....

Ed_26

KW: Possibly your sleeper spacing(3/4") & sleeper depth is too much for 1/2" pex. Have you put down some flooring over the piping to see if the problem is still there? If so, how about some foam strips in the grooves to support the plates? Or some caulking (that will not outgas when heated)? Sounds to me the plates are flexing? Maybe have to lay the pipe, cover it with the plates, then lay sleepers? Good luck, I know more experienced people will help, just tales time. BTW, could you post some pix?

KW in WI

I've gotten myself into a mess...looking for a way out....

OK, I've got a situation on my hands (understatement!). I would very much appreciate
any and all insights on hopfeully walking me out of the mess I'm in - that I've created.
I will also accept any/all chastisment for creating the situation - done several things
wrong in the process and humbly accept what I deserve....to teach other to avoid the same
mistakes. This is a long post - the problem is stated at the end (details in between) so
you may want to skip down first....

DETAILS:
Two story home, 3100 total finished sq ft on upper two levels combined, unfinished basement
Well insulated house - spray foam urethane + 1" rigid foam sheathing - very tight
I know it all starts with heat loss so:

Done by two different people - myself using IPEX radiant's software, by an outside materials
provider/consultant.
Method 1:
69,500 total load, 48,800 on upper two levels, 20,670 in basement, outputs slightly higher than
method two (below)

Method 2:
54,750 total load, 36,100 on upper two levels, 18,650 in basement, outputs ranging
from 13.6 to 8, avg 11 BTU/sq ft

Personally, I think this house will perform at least as good as Method 2 - maybe better based
solely on my gut - and temporary heating during construction - and extremely limited temp
swings when exterior temps change

Installation Details:
Tubing: 1/2" Mr. Pex with O2 barrier (not PAP)
Basement slab has radiant in concrete
Upper two floors are to be an above-the-subfloor sandwich using lightweight AL plates

Installed 3/4" thick sleepers on all floors - OSB anywhere that could get wet - particle board in
places like bedrooms. 3/4" gap between sleepers for inserting AL plates and tubing. Mostly 12" O.C.
and some 10" O.C. in spaces like bathrooms.

Flooring will be almost all hard surfaces (two small areas of carpet with high density rubber
pad) - mostly floating floors (laminate/bamboo), some ceramic, some commercial vinyl tile

Heat source provided by local HVAC/plumbing shop (I'm in rural WI if that matters)
Heat source is Munchkin boiler

9 zones - plumbed to run on zone pumps, basement slab is one zone, 4 on each of the upper floors


PROBLEM:
All sleepers are now installed in 3100 sq ft - jazzed to begin stapling plates into place and snapping
in tubing. Things went well until I walked over the plates with tubing.....squeaks - sounds like
a 100 yr old farmhouse! Appears to be tubing rubbing on AL plates. No idea what to do. Don't see
a solution in sight. Frustrated. Any thoughts? Have thought about simply skipping the plates
and running the tubing in the grooved but not sure I can get the output needed on this spacing.

At one time, I was worried about the fast heat transfer rate of the AL plates short cycling the boiler
maybe running without plates will simply force the system to not short cycle. I don't know - confused.

Thanks for helping me sort this out - simply as an act of compassion!! I'm in a spot.

Brad White_91

My gut tells me what Ed said

about the caulking, using a good silicone embedment in the plate groove. And yes, please post some pictures.

singh

Did you

Add construction adhesive under the sleepers?
Lots of screws, and staple one side only on the plates?
Can you install PAP instead? Will you have reset controls?

I second the caulking in the plate grooves.

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KW in WI

I'll post pictures shortly.

screwed down the sleepers - no construction adhesive. When stapled to one side only the noise was really bad. The more staples I add, the lsess noise I get (not sure what will happen in terms of expansion/contraction noises though). Noise the same in areas with OSB and particle board. I've only placed plates/tubing in two rooms. Sleepers are all installed.

Noise doesn't appear to be from sleeper movement - as you step on the tubing in the plate, the tubing depresses in the AL plate and squeaks.

I had considered construction adheisve under the AL plates - in theory to provide support & prevent plate from depressing. Would silicone caulk provide enough support? Singh, when you say "caulking in the plate grooves" - do you mean in the AL groove - or under the AL plate (in the wooden track in the subfloor?

Also, can anyone tell me what I could expect for output if I leave the plates out entirely? Given a max floor temp of 80 deg, tubing is on 12" centers. I realize there would be heat striping.

Dave Larsen_2

silicone

How about silicone in the groove of the plate. if that is where you feel there is movement, then that would be a start. can you still apply silicine to where the plate meets the sleeper? I'm also in WI and would be glad to help! post some pictures and email me if you would like.
larsen5@doorpi.net,or dal@abledistributing.com

Constantin

There can be many reasons for floors to squeak...

... and the tubing is but one of them. I agree with the other posters that adding a silicone glue to the plates will stop the tubing from squeaking against the plates, but the real issue may be a soft floor that flexes too much in the first place.

Mr. Wallace also had some issues with one of his floor installations, something he remedied with a lot of glue, a lot of screws, and a lot of walking around looking for squeaks, IIRC.

Once you have the finished floor in place, the squeaking should subside somewhat because the load of you walking around will be distributed across a wider area by the finished floor. However, now is the right time to address the squeaking, and the silicone is cheap (though labor-intensive) insurance.

KW in WI

The squeaks only seem to occur when actually stepping on the tubing/plates. Walking on either side of them (on the sleepers) doesn't generate noise.

I created a mock-up of the system so I could get pics of the cross-section (attached). I hope these are helpful. I also shot a small video clip that might be helpful - not sure if that can be posted.

KW in WI

pictures

The squeaks only seem to occur when actually stepping on the tubing/plates. Walking on either side of them (on the sleepers) doesn't generate noise.

I created a mock-up of the system so I could get pics of the cross-section (attached). I hope these are helpful. I also shot a small video clip that might be helpful - not sure if that can be posted.

KW in WI

video?

Not sure what happens when a video clip is attached - we'll see. Squeaks occurs both when tubing is pressed on (first part of clip) - but are worse when the aluminum near the ends is pressed on (last half).

chuck shaw

Have you tried

attaching a piece of the sub-floor, to see if that will hold things in place well enough to stop the movement of the tubing, it seems like you only have the bottom slice of bread in the sandwich? I don't know if this will make a difference, but the weight and securing of the sub floor may help, especially if you add the caulking in the plates.

Let us know how things work out.

Chuck

KW in WI

Chuck,

I think you are right - that will help. Some of the areeas where there will be floating floors (engineered bamboo and laminates) the plan was to float these directly over the sleepers/tubing/plates - without another layer in between (at least I was told that this was normally done).

With all this squeaking just while walking on it, I'm starting to get worried about the expansion and contraction noises too.

Thanks for replies everyone!

chuck shaw

Even if

they are not nailed down, the floating floors still have some weight to them.

Chuck

Constantin

I see lots of wiggle room...

... the plates can deform up/down, as well as sideways as the weight deforms them.

I would screw the plates all the way down to the subfloor and make sure that they are flat against the floor (i.e. start w/the screws at the edge of the tubing, then work your way out. Once the Al cannot move, it will have a much harder time squeaking. You could also use some "liquid nails" under the flat Al plate parts as a belts&suspenders approach in case the Al isn't perfectly taut or flat.

Once the finished floor is on top of this sandwich, the vertical movement of the fins will be constrained. At that point, you only ought to hear the tubing moving longitudianally through the fin plate as it expands and contracts. A bit of silicone in the grooves ought to cure that.

One thing that has surprised me is how no floor fin manufacturer has seen the need to add a bit of heat-setting glue to the underside of their fins. Imagine the time savings that a contractor would benefit from if the glue could be catalyzed by heating the floor plates to let's say 150°F, bonding them to the floors and tubing above and below.

Applying such a finish at the factory level would be trivial, yet save installers a lot of potential head/heartache by reducing the number of screws required to hold the plates in place and minimizing "squeakiness" to boot. Such a benefit ought to be worth a couple of cents per LF...

jp_2

weight of floor

I don't see that the flooring weight is going to 'push' the plates into place, i see the same thing happening when you walk. I'm assuming the flooring is less than 1/2" thick. even at 3/4", I think you'd have the same problem with a floating floor.

I would really question whether or not those plates will be worth the wnoise they make, they look rather thin. I think everyone has experienced the heat transfer of Aluminum foil, you can touch foil out of the oven, but not a pan lid.

Brad White_91

I tend to agree with Constantin

Screws versus staples for one, silicone for another. When flooring is laid on top in a mock-up what is the effect? I did hear the oil-canning in the video and have heard that before the floor was laid down, nothing to object to afterwards. I could not tell you if there was a thin foam or resin paper layer below the Pergo though.

Kevin O. Pulver

KW

Congratulations on your excellent photos and captions... Evan a video! I have a set-up nearly identical to yours with laminate flooring over the top. No silicone, but it doesn't seem to sqeak at all. I don't know why. (I did use the silicone when I did a Quik Trak job)
Mine is Wirsbo HePex. My plates did seem to lay flatter than yours, maybe that is why it's quieter. On mine the sleepers (spacers between plates) are screwed to osb that floats on my concrete basement floor. And the plates are not attached at all, just dropped in place and covered.
Kevin

singh

KW

Nice pics. And video!!

what I don't understand is why the tube sticks above the sleepers.
Is the sleeper spacing too tight, possible root cause?
Maybe not the best detail shown in this pic, but I used a scrap piece of
tube and plate for a spacer between sleepers.

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Unknown

we do a lot of these systems, and frankly a few staples a plate would be much quicker than catalysing anything.

Now if they were Peel and stick, maybe, but if they are stapled, at least you can move them if you mess up.

Something is odd with this install but each plate is different. The ones we use sit flat and with PAP pipe, the most noise I've ever heard is a couple of instances where there was "crackle" for a week or so that went away, I suspect that the plates were "bunched" during finish floor installation and eventually were pressed flat.. Ours are a bit thinner than these though, and have better groove formation.

Typically installation is 4-5 staples up one side of the plate and you're done, that's pretty quick.

KW in WI

I used a 3/4" spacer as directed by the plate supplier. Talked to Rob at Northeast Radiant Technologies and he uses a 1" gap. Maybe that is some of the issue.

I *think* we're resolving this - I'll post findings soon but it seems that the ends of the plates are deformed - flaring the ends with a 1/2" or 5/8" pipe seems to eliminate most of the noise.... still working on it...

Keith

KW in WI

Kevin,

How wide was your gap between sleepers?

K

Constantin

Oh, I agree that staples are quick...

... but a fin that automatically adheres itself to the finished floor, the pipe, and the subfloor via a thermoset coating would be pretty nifty. An inline coating process could make the whole thing quite economical. Now you avoid the need for silicone down the grove, just place the plates, snap them in place, maybe tack them once or twice, then let the glue do the rest.

Activation would consist of running high temp water through the circuit for 30 minutes. One possible problem I see is storage of the plates until installation. Leaving them in direct sunlight might activate them!