Any experience with Ultra-Fin plates

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

how much heat can transfer from the radiant system, but wouldn't closer spacing allow me to get the same amount of heat with lower water temperatures? I was thinking of running my nest UF job down the joist bays, like you did, how close to each other did you put the Ultra Fins? Thanks for your help, Bob Gagnon

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=331&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Dan_34

Any experience with Ultra-Fin plates

Hi,

Anyone use or have any experience with the Ultra-Fin system for in joist applications? Made in Canada http://www.ultra-fin.com/

Thanks for any info

Jeff Lawrence_25

Check here or here

Supply House Rick

Dan

It's been my experience that the manufacturers will not stand by their products if other products are used on their system. We had a job where people used brand X tubing and brand Y fittings. There was a problem and both companies walked away. Which makes sense doesn't it? Check with tubing manufacturer before you start to cover all the bases.

Rick

hr

UF's are

mainly a heat transfer devise. They increase the surface area of the bare tube. I'm not aware that any tube manufacture has an issue with UFs being used on their tube. I don't believe UF makes or even recommends a brand of tube.

I've only used UF on one job. I've found they perform as advertised. A lot better output than bare suspended tube from my experience.

I still feel the ultimate transfer mechanism for low temperature radiant would be the extruded aluminum plates or a WarmBoard installation. The amount of aluminum, surface area and tight connection to the flooring all make for an excellent conductive transfer.

Here are some pictures of UF operating. Viewed through an Infared camera. Pretty nice temperature spread across the finished hardwood floor surface.

Notice the cold areas around the exterior door and sill plates!

hot rod

Jed_2

Huh?

what does"brand "x" tubing, with brand "y" fittings have to do with the rate of conductance from the tubing. The Ultra Fins merely magnify that rate of conductance, if I am understanding the product's perfomance correctly. What does that have to do with the "tubing/fitting system" interface. Furthermore, there are a number of fitting manufacturers who have received compliance with an ASTM standard ( I don't recall the standard, but have it at the office) for pex tube fittings, which are accepted by many tubing manufacurers for use with their tubing. The Industry is gradually "maturing". How many copper tube producers are there left? How many copper fitting manufacurers are there left? Are they the same? Does Elkart
make copper tubing? Get the point? What's the warranty? Is it the copper pipe, or the copper fitting? I think the "old days" of proprietary manufactured systems, as it relates to PEX systems, is quickly becoming a thing of the past. The tubing manufacturer will evaluate his tubing in a "failure" scenario, based on the standards set forth. If it's shown the tubing failed within the limits of his warranty, he's liable.

So, Rick, yes! Check with the manufacturer if they accept the ASTM standard for the fitting connected to their tubing. If it has the ASTM stamp that they accepted, then what? No walking away from that, without a full investigation.

Jed

Tombig_2

Ultra Fin

I have installed a few ultra fin jobs over the years. HR, I followed your posts closely as I knew you would research it thoroghly. It's a decent product which can be used on ANY 1/2" tube. It's pretty labor intensive to install with all the drilling and riveting (three rivets per plate pair) They're not that cheap (I wish I'd thought of that!)
Since it's joist heating, edge insulation is critical. The air gap between the plates and insulation is also critical. If you are going to use a condensing boiler I would go with extruded plates. I was told by the owner of the company not to expect much output below 120* circ temp. but with good insulation I think it'll perform much lower. I'll know better after this winter. I,ve got a three story, all UF on the upper floors, Weil McLain Ultra as the heating plant, isocyanate and blown cellulose insulation, and a homeowner that likes to tinker. Once I teach him how to adjust the reset curve we'll find out just how low we can go.

hr

rim joist insulation detail

is critical in any radiant floor. DO NOT use fiberglass batts here. You will get a lot of condensation as the air leaks around the sill to joist detail allows cold air to contact warm floors. Bad deal, a real mold forming potential. I would insist on spray foam at this insulation detail.

I ran that UF system at 150 supply all winter through the construction of that home. I think a reset control, with some low limits programed, would work well with UF. I don't agree that UF is JUST a high temperature emitter. Modern well insulated homes are showing some real low BTU/ sq ft requirments these days. With hard surface flooring I'd guess 140 is a realistic number for many UF systems.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Pushing the envelope with Ultra-Fin

Ultra-Fin has this potential application I haven't tried yet, but I'm considering. Typically when you convert some sort of natural convector to forced convection, the heat output is increased 3 - 5 times.

Imagine a great room built on open floor trusses. Ultra-Fin per spec is installed under the floor. The whole system probably works fine above 120F. But let's say you want to heat using active solar, which means the supply water temp could be down to 90F. In one corner of the room you cut a 10" hole in the floor and install a some sort of fan or blower that pulls air from the heated truss "plenum". Add another hole in the floor for return air in the opposite corner of the room, and control the blower with the second stage of the thermostat.

Whenever the blower kicks on, you can maintain the room temp at design conditions with abnormally cool supply water (think of it as a gigantic fan coil). At all other times, it operates as a nice radiant floor that has the advantage of ZERO heat striping.

Has anyone ever come across a system like this?

Plumdog_2

I tried it

and it does a good job of extracting btu's from your tubing that would otherwise just cruise on back to where they came from. It is handy to use when someone wants to add radiant or warm floors to existing baseboard system. I would adhere to the spacing/temp specs and get an accurate heat loss done; because it is possible to overdo it.

Supply House Rick

Jed my favorite advisary HUH?

I spoke with one of our MFG Rep's this morning and he stated that: "You would not be using their PEX according to their standard installation practices" "If tubing fails with another mfg product attached to their PEX, they could deny any warranty claims" Doesn't that make sense? Why the axe to grind?

Simply I was saying Jed, that one should double check with their PEX mfg and make sure everybody will stand up if a problem occurs...

Lighten up, OK?

P.S. Is Huh? a word?

Rick

Unknown

sounds a lot like

a modified baloon construction. In days of old the dead men used this to bring heat down and circulate around the inner house.

I think Dan had some pictures posted on this.

wheels

Jed_2

Rick

No real axe at all, just being jerky. But I didn't understand what you said, in relation to Ultra Fin. UF's don't have anything to do with the connection system. All the tubing I deal with allows other fittings, if they meet the ASTM standard. That's all.

Huh? no, just a grunt.
Jed

Mark Hunt

I think


Rick is saying that IF something went wrong and the tubing failed, the tubing manufacturer would have the ability to deny a warranty claim since UF is not mentioned in any of their installation or application material.

You are correct, UF has nothing to do with the connection system. Rick was just using that as an example.

Sorta' like the PVC as a venting material debate. No manufaturer of PVC lists venting as an approved application so if a vent system failed, the manufacturer would have no liability. I would imagine the same applies to a tubing manufacturer that does not list UF as an approved application for their tubing??

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Supply House Rick

Thanks Mark

I guess I wasn't properly conveying my point clearly. That's what I am trying to say... They (Pex-Mfg) do not have to stand behind any defects in a system that is not installed according to installation manual and that would have to include UF...

Rick

Unknown

heat loss and plates

Mark (and all),

The problem I have with the UF. I figure a job in Wrightsuite ManJ-7 and it shows me I need supplimental heat with 1/2 PEX and Thermofin-C PLates.

I drop the heat loss BTU in the UF spread sheet and it tells me I have more then enough heat, in fact I can be at 24" OC.

I get confused some times. I do not know how this is possible that convection in a joist application will outperform a conduction system.

wheels

Jed_2

Agreed, Rick

But it is very difficult to envision a "defect" in an Ultra-Fin system being caused, or remotely related to, the Ultra-Fins. McDuffco recommends PXA tubing, for obvious stability reasons; so, maybe it's a moot point. So far, I have many Contractors who are pleased with the UF's. I strongly encourage the use of PXA, and McDuffco recommends Kitec. I can think of 4 pex-al-pex mfgr's quickly off the top, 2 of which I can recommend.

Around here, top dry panel applications are rare; staple up are abundant. I can sell conductive transfer plates, but once the word is out about the UF's, it becomes the lesser of two evil installs (drilling and all), and nails, and such.

I am a believer of conduction, but can't stem the tide.

Jed

hr

If a pex manufacture does not allow

Ultra Fin do they allow snap on transfer plates, staple up or down? I'd be curious to know that brand of pex. A private e mail if you do not want to mention it for all to see, thanks.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Another possible UF installation

I'm doing my first ever panel radiator system (a tough sell here in Missouri) As usual there is no wall space in the kitchen for a radiator. I'll run some loops of UF under the kitchen to get the required BTU to that space. An Oventrop Unibox as the control as all the radiators will be controlled by TRVs from a home run manifold system.

Can't wait to fire this one up.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

As long as the floor surface temperature

gets to the required # to meet the load, really what does the emitter style matter? My pics show clearly the UF does a very good job of providing an even temperature spread across the floor. The only cool spots being the actual joist. I've not seen that even of a spread with any other product save Warmboard. Even 8" oc plates show strip when viewed through the IR camera.

Actually if someone choses to go with a cast iron boiler of the non condensing type, seems UF would be a better match then worring about a mix down system and boiler protection required with low temperature radiant. Why force a high temperature boiler to pretend it likes to be a low temperature (below 120) heat source.

Then again I have seen some bare tube suspended pex and staple up rubber meet the load in some pretty cold climate high load jobs.

I think the key is knowing when radiant panels are not the best choice or acknowledging when to add supplemental.

Regardless of manufactures claims of 40, 50 or more btu/ square foot, radiant floor, numbers..,. I think 30- 32 should be the "flashing red light" load number

Uf is not the only, or maybe even the very best radiant install product, but certainly another arrow for a savy radiant installer to have in their quiver.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jed_2

Mark

So, what about Climate Panels ( or any of the independant plate mfgr's), are they "listed" with your tubing of choice? Just curious, and trying to get a better insite to the "liability" thing. Most of the major tubing manufacturers offer plates of some kind with their "system" offerings. Do they make the plates themselves? Probably not. They have little to nothing to do with the hydraulics/chemistry of the system interconnectivity. How can any externally applied appendage have anything to do with the performance of the tubing/fitting system.

Not sold on your logic

Jed

Mark Hunt

Not my logic


I don't know one way or the other Jed.

Obviously the manufacturers know about UF and other attachment methods yet they have never come right out and said that they can't be used with their tubing.

As I said, I don't see how UF could hurt the tubing so it is probably not ever going to be an issue.

Get a lawyer involved and things could get sticky. That can happen in any scenario as I am sure you know.

Mark H


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

closer spacing?

UF recommended 3' spacing for pipe, if I ran 18" on center the supply temps should go way down. Do you see any problems with that? Bob Gagnon

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

I installed this system

with a tube in every joist bay. It just seemed simpler for me than drilling my brains out going against the joist direction. Yes it used more tube, but it not that much dollar wise and it give you some fudge room.

I would imagine you reach a point where the weak link is not the UF to the air space transfer, but the heated air to the floor transfer. Adding tighter spacing or more UF isn't going to help much.

Just as in radiant tube installation very little benefit going to, or tighter than, 6" on center.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Lower temps with UF

Bob,

The short answer is no.

I'll give a shot at an explanation:
Assuming that the floor assembly is the limiting factor, the governing equation of heat transfer in Btu/hr is H=UA(T2-T1)

U=1/R value of floor system

A=Area of floor

T2=temperature of air in joist bay which will be very close to the supply water temp. Again this is assuming that the heat is easily transferred by the UF to the air in the joist bay, but the resistance of the floor system slows down the overall heat transfer

T1=Indoor design temp. =68F

You can see that the area of the Ultra Fin is irrelevant, because it doesn't show up in the governing equation. However, if you try to reduce the area of the UF below a certain point, however, then the original assumption (that the floor is the limiting factor) will be wrong.

If you can calculate the R value of the floor system, then you can determine the required supply water temperature.

Jed_2

Kevin

In thinking about your, I agree to the point that you state "T2= temperature of air in the joist bay which will be very close the supply water temp." Convective transfer is dependent on Entering air temp and leaving air temp, and the rate of air flow, is it not. But, if you don't have an EAT/LAT (assuming a well sealed joist bay and rim seals), isn't your transfer rate dependent on the upward flux and the heat transfer coefficient of the floor to the space? In other words, what's the heat loss of the space? But, your air flow uniformly covers nearly the entire floor area, less the joist contact area's. The air temp in the bay cannot closely equal the the SWT. As you stated, the floor assembly is the limiting factor, and the rate of heat transfer to the space (creating the convective DT within the joist space). I can't see how this would create an air space temp close to the SWT, since the usual SWT is 160-180°. But, I can see how a much greater Unit Load can be achieved, in comparison to bare suspended tubing, or even conductive plates.

I've heard or read that you can reset UF's, but I have no idea what the curve would look like.

Jed

Kevin_in_Denver_2

UF heat flux

Try to think of it as an electrical circuit. The voltage drops across several interfaces, each with their own resistance. The interface with the much higher resistance governs, and the voltage drops across the other interfaces are negligible.

That's why the air in the joist bay will be nearly equal to SWT. The relatively low resistance between the SWT and joist bay air means the temperature drop across that interface is negligible.

Using outdoor reset with UF would be fine. The heat flows are operating in the linear range.