ASME as opposed to NON-ASME

Paul Pollets

Washington State has long adopted the pressure vessel code and requires the ASME rating for all boiler installed in the state.

Since there are few residential boiler inspections outside of major cities, the non-ASME boilers are sold for the few bucks difference, and lack of inspection. Much to my chagrin, I'm bothered that reps and wholesalers stock the non-ASME appliances and hope that the installing contractor won't get tagged.

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Dave Larsen_2

ASME as opposed to NON-ASME

How do you guys feel about non-asme rated boilers? Here's the story.....our boiler line now has asme approval,but some of our salesmen feel we should continue to push the non-asme because of a cheaper price. Does price matter to you as much as having approval?? I feel we should only sell the asme, am I being too picky?

hr

How much cheaper?



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Dave Larsen_2

About 180.00 per boiler

Brad White_9

ASME or not ASME, that is the question....

Some jurisdictions, especially public entities, demand ASME stamping on all components where available/applicable. I tend to specify ASME-stamped products where they are available, frankly as a demonstration of due-diligence and a best practice. An ASME inspector has told me that there is no functional difference in a given model unit between one that is stamped and one that is not. It is a liability issue. Some people sleep better at night because of it.

For example, all boilers in a given line will have been tested to ASME standards consistent with their rating (pressure and at temperature), both will be sold but as noted, the one with the stamp has a higher price. I have seen the cost premium be as much as $400, it all depends on the size of the boiler I suppose.

Same goes for unfired pressure vessels such as expansion tanks, some have the stamp, some not, for the same essential unit.

Ike Gatlin

ASME

It isn’t really a case of pushing one vs. the other any more.

The ANSI standard contained a loophole in its wording allowing boilers to be sold without ASME.

The loophole has been closed, and as of June 1 2006, all boilers built to comply with ANSI must carry the ASME "H" stamp.

I am sure that you may have some remaining stock of the boilers built prior to this date. They may still be non-ASME. But once they are gone, that’s it.

Ike Gatlin

Dave Larsen_2

producing both?

The Manufacturer is offering both, with no mention of changing when stock is depleted.

Steamhead (in transit)

For 180 bucks

I'd go with the ASME stamp on every job.

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Ike Gatlin

both?

Not sure who you are dealing with.
But... if the boiler is built to comply with ANSI Z21.13-a
It must be ASME stamped.

Ike Gatlin

both

I am not sure who you are dealing with...

But if the boiler is built to comply with ANSI Z21.13-a, it must have a ASME stamped heatexchanger.

ANSI is pretty well the "norm" in the industry. You may see a UL standard mentioned by some but typically the UL standard refers to ANSI.

Ike

WaterHeaterGuy

$180.00 to pay for some guy to stand there during the pressure testing procedure.... sheesh

I take it that there is absolutely no difference in the manufacturing process aside from this correct?

If they are identical, then I'd choose to keep my $180.00 thank you.

WaterHeaterGuy

.

In WI the cost for getting "tagged" is just about the same as the original cost of the stamp. You get a variance for about $200 vs the cost of the original stamp being $180.

The contractor, in his never-ending mission to save as much money as possible, figures "if I stick 10 boilers in residential applications, and get nailed only once... then I've still saved myself $1,600."

Ike Gatlin

Accountability

It isn’t really about the simply stated "manufacturing process".
The cost difference comes to more of the logistical side of things. Example:
Lets say a manufacturer wants to ASME approve a pressure vessel...

1. The design must be reviewed following specific criteria. This is done by an "Authorized Inspector" generally representing the insurance carrier. If the "authorized Inspector" approves the design, the manufacturer then may move to the next step. The proof test. Bet you can only imagine what this is… yes, people generally get wet.
2. Now its time to manufacture... all materials produced for the approved design must also be certified by test. So let’s say you order cast headers for your ASME product... now your vendor has to certify the iron pour. This obviously creates paperwork that then becomes attached to that specific shipment of parts from your vendor.
3. So now you take those parts and you build an ASME product. More paper becomes created which now has any of the paperwork from your vendor behind it. And each ASME product you build has the specific paperwork behind it.
4. Now the inspector witnesses the test. After which he signs off on the integrity of the ASME product.
5. All of the approved paperwork then goes to the National Board as an archive of ASME products. Anybody anytime can request the approvals containing all related paperwork. So, ten years from now, you can call the National Board and have 100% accountability on all the items related to that pressure vessel.

I can assure you that the 180 bucks isn’t profit.

When someone tells you that the non-ASME version is the same as the ASME, isn’t 180 bucks worth piece of mind? If some is telling you that, why aren’t you challenging it?

Ike Gatlin
A guy who one time in his career worked with the “Authorized Inspectors” and still gets writers cramp from signing paperwork.

Shaun Anderson

I visited Rheems plant .....

in Montgomery,AL just a few months ago and yes there is a huge difference between non-ASME and ASME products. Its just not a stamp but a different build process. I seen that they run the tanks on the same lines but change the material thats used on the tank build lines. Everything needs to meet ASME standards. If a ASME tank fails in the field, Rheem wants it back to find out why because the tanks get checked, then double checked , and then triple checked to asssure quality products. From what I seen in the manufacturing process, its seems to be worth the extra money for all that quality assurance. Helps you sleep a little better at night. Right ?

Shaun

Robert O'Connor_3

ASME & the 2003 IFGC

Dave, the code, at least in the great state of New Jersey, is the 2003 IFGC & IMC. The section within the gas code to reference would be; SECTION 631 (IFGC) BOILERS;, 631.1 Standards. Boilers shall be listed in accordance with the requirements of ANSI Z21.13 or UL 795. If applicable, the boiler shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the requirements of ASME CSD-1 and as applicable, the ASME boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Sections (Roman numeral)1, 2,4,5,and 9, and NFPA 85.


Now what exactly does this mean you say??

It means that, the scope of the referenced section includes boilers in all occupancies including power plants; factories; industrial plants; schools; and institutional occupancies such as hospitals, commercial laundries, hotels and residential structures. Boilers are defined in section 202 of the 03 IFGC.

Boilers as I'm sure most of you know are potentially dangerous if not properly designed, constructed and operated, more so than many other appliances because of the potential explosion hazard associated with pressure vessels. In addition to the code, several industry standards are referenced. Manufacturered gas-fired boilers MUST be listed to either ANSI Z21.13 or UL 795.

To sum up, I'd pay, and would be sleeping very well at night, alittle lighter in the pocket, but sleeping soundly.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Unknown

on this job

On this job, amse means nothing in my opinion... Replaced leaky horz steel tank with better qaunilty(sp) tank.. Was special ordered and designed to fits in constrainted space.... 7 yrs later, the high and all mighty fire marshall inspector looked at the tank and failed due no asme tag on it.. Af after going back and forth with marshall, asking him why it passed before and not now? His reply that he's learning his duties as time goes by.... We replaced the tank with excact(sp) same one, only thing differnrt is the tag and 850 bucks more... What's more, the first tank was glas lined while the 2nd isn't... But it passed....

Josh_10

Stole the words right out of my mouth Paul. What irks me is when my competition gets the job because they bought the non-certified equipment.

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Robert O'Connor_3

rjbphd

And so I'm guessing, you too are learning as well. You can't error, if its for safety sake. Painfully expensive as this was, yet a lesson learned.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Ross_7

ASME Stamping

Stamped pressure vessels all the way!

Unknown

the point

U missing the point on what I'm saying.. I'll to my best to re explaining the job... The orginal 50 plus years horn hot water storage tank was leaking with too many boiler plugs...this tank did NOT have any relief valve on it, only the water heater did have it .... Passed the fire marshall's inspection all these years... 1st replacement tank was custom made with 1/4 steel, glass lined, to fits in limited space and have proper sized amse relief valve installed.... ( while there are zillions of pressure tanks,water heaters are made with thinner metals) 7 years later the fire marshall decided it was illegal because it didn't have a amse label on it... Questioned why he waited til now, not the year of installation? He didn't know that was "part" of his job and was still learning his duties... So we had to re replace the tank with exactly the same tank with a 850 dollars spot welded amse tag, this time, not glass lined... Proved that not all inpectors know their job and yet, get paid on our expenses and don't have the same liabitly as we do...

Max_3

ASME as opposed to NON-ASME

Our factory makes both ASME and Non-ASME. Parts are the same on both. Only difference, we have extra paper trail for the ASME boilers. H-3s, shop inspections, signoff sheets, training records, POs to track the ASME parts. Dont forget, a color code system on all steel used in the construction of the pressure vessel. Our shop is multiple duplicate. No ASME inspection hold points. Each operator is trained on inspecting the product and then signs off. For the extra paperwork, we have an ASME clerk to keep track and file it. Oh ya, dont forget the $120,000 a year for the ASME inspector. All the pressure vessels are tested, even if non-ASME. A water leak means warranty. ASME or Non ASME.

Dave Larsen_2

cost of getting \"tagged\"

paying that $200 for being "tagged" doesn't remove the liability of using a non approved piece of equipment. What about liabilities?

Josh_10

Does this mean the price will drop because everthing becomes standardized?

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