direct flame sense

Bob Harper

Our mfrs. now use IPI and one HSI unit, which looks like a flame helix under glass. Our first electronic units were DSI with Kanthal flame rods but those are now gone.

I'm curious about the application for a more sensitive system. When is it indicated over other units? What are its limitatons?

Timmie, what do you hear about ultraviolet (UV) flame proving? Coming to a theatre near me anytime soon?
Thx,

craig_4

direct flame sense

i am working on an older smith boiler with hot surface ignition. burner drops out after 5 seconds. replaced the ignitor with same results. how can i test the flame sensing operation of the ignitor without smoking my meter?
also is there a way to retrofit a remote sensor without having to replace the ignition module? any help is appreciated.

Unknown

What is the make

and number of the module? Does it have a burner ground connection? If so place your meter between burner ground connection and the wire removed from burner ground connection (in series). Set the meter on the microamp scale, you should read between 2 to 10 microamps, normal is about 3 to 5 microamps. This is with the burner running. Make sure the flame is stable and not lifting or flaoting around as thsis wil cause the type of shut down you are having.

If you do not have a burner ground connection then give me a fax number or e-mail address and I will send you instructions for a switch device I invented for testing microamps without damaging your meter.

Do you have a combustion analyzer? If so it would be a good idea to run a test on your system to see if there are any combustion issues.

I also have some Troubleshooting Guides available that instruct on procedures for testing hot surface igniters.

Techman

Tim!

> and number of the module? Does it have a burner

> ground connection? If so place your meter between

> burner ground connection and the wire removed

> from burner ground connection (in series). Set

> the meter on the microamp scale, you should read

> between 2 to 10 microamps, normal is about 3 to 5

> microamps. This is with the burner running. Make

> sure the flame is stable and not lifting or

> flaoting around as thsis wil cause the type of

> shut down you are having.

>

> If you do not have a

> burner ground connection then give me a fax

> number or e-mail address and I will send you

> instructions for a switch device I invented for

> testing microamps without damaging your

> meter.

>

> Do you have a combustion analyzer? If

> so it would be a good idea to run a test on your

> system to see if there are any combustion

> issues.

>

> I also have some Troubleshooting

> Guides available that instruct on procedures for

> testing hot surface igniters.

Techman

Hot Surface Ignitors

Hi Tim.I was wondering where you were on this thread. Can you send me the info on your invention? I hate to admit it ,but I have NOT finished studying all the literature I purchased from you the last time. Real good info by the way! Thanks!

Bob Harper

HSI

If you've replaced the igniter assy. I would venture you have a grounding issue or see end of this post. Check your ground wire, scrub it with steel wool and its mating surface. If need be, add an additional ground wire to the cabinet. Measure the Neutral 110vac for incoming voltage. If you get btw 50 mv to 2 volts AC, you may have a problem with your house wiring.

Don't forget, the flame mantle must remain steady in the tip of the igniter, which does double duty for your flame rectification. If something is distorting the flames, you can throw a bucket of parts at it and it won't fix it.

Timmie is Da' Man and his material is very comprehensive. If you want to buy a meter that is made for microamps, get a Fluke 16 or a UEI 385. The black wire stays put and you move the red lead to the other jack then wire the leads in series from the module's sensor to the flame rod (or igniter with a HSI). With low microamps, check for flame, conections, and clean contacts with steel wool--no sand paper.

Check the ignition sequence in the manual. If they expect this igniter to take 15-45 seconds to heat up and it kicks out at 5 seconds, you have other issues than flame rectification. Check the module, snap discs, and vacuum switches.

HTH,

Darin(in Michigan)_2

Rheem/Rude used the ignitor for sensing at first in their fa furnaces.
They had a switch, a light and three sets of wires. one set wnt to your meter, one set was the male molex for the ignitor, the other was the female. You would fire the furnace and if the light was on, then 120 volts was present and the ignitor wa in warm up mode. When the light went out, the ignitor was in sensing mode and you flip the swich and your meter was now in series w/ the ignitor and sensing flame. You could probably make one if you want to experiment.

Unknown

They got that

switch from me. I never had it patented and gave one to a Robertshaw rep who a year later Robertshaw came out with it. I also gave one to the Rheem/Ruud rep and low and bewhold they came out with it.

I have probably given the instuctions for it to thousands by now.

I just e-mailed a copy of how to make one and how to use it to techman.

I will also send a copy to Craig who started this post.

Guy_6

flame rod

If it is not too old, it may be a Performance Specialties flame sensor. It is a great sensor, being that it is very sensitive, but that might also be a part of the problem. You can not replace it with a Honeywell or Robertshaw, as they are not AS sensitive.
If you can't get the answer here, call our Tech. dept at
413-564-5950 and they will walk you through it.

Guy Woollard
Smith Boiler Co.

Unknown

Guy is that special

procedure anywhere on line or in a PDF file?

Curious what makes it more sensitive than a regular Kanthal rod? I have never run into this before so I am very curious as to its application.

Bob Harper

dsi or hsi?:

Is this a Direct Spark Ignition or a Hot Surface Igniter? Two completely different animals in operation and troubleshooting.

Unknown

Bob, I think he has

a Hot Surface Igniter being used for ignition and sensing. That is Craig who was the first to post. Guy Woolard who now works for HB Smith introduced something I have not heard of which is a Performance Specialties flame sensor, have you ever heard of that?.

Glenn Harrison_2

WOW!!!

I bought one of those boxes from Rheem 14 years ago. Little did I know I would know the inventor years later

Very cool Tim.

(By the way, I still have that box, modified with a couple of extra adapters for other ignitors.)

JERRYG

hot surface ignitors

one last thing,just in case the problem started after some electrical work was done around the unit.Hot surface ignitors are polarity sensitive.
Quite often overlooked solution!

Unknown

UV detection has

been around for a long time with Honeywell Mini-peeper and Purple Peeper units, along with Fireye UV detection systemsm used on industrial and commercial burner systems.

It has been to the best of my knowledge to expensive for residential application along with complex service and maintenance.

Who knows what the future will hold as it is a really good system when set up correctly.