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New topics PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I go into a restaurant and hear or listen to the other booths or tables complaining of how worm or cold it it is.. I know a man ;-0 who will or has the master key to the stat box, and adjusts it accordingly... I am not sure who this person is, but the people love me-xxx or him I mean,,,..:-)

Mike T.


  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343

    I cannot believe that nobody has any control Questions. How about this one? ECONOMIZERS?? huh? I only know about the Honeywell actuators and controls. I like em, but took a long time to learn. The only reason is I taught myself. No guidance on this topic for me. Carrier uses them exclusively in the commercial applications but I am not to fond of the new set up. I haven't figured it out completely, but I am trying.

    Mike T. Come on people........am I the only one who likes economizers?
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    I'm sorry

    Hello Carol.....;-)

    Mike T.

    Look I replied to my own post................;-)
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,180

    on vacation, Mike. Somewhere up near the Arctic Circle.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343

  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144

    Hi Mike T, I really like the idea of economizers,I sell them ,install them, service them and swear at them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!They are a pain in the "dupa" to work on ,all the controls stuck in a little box.Its not easy getting eyes ,brain,fingers,and test probes in there all at the same time .I think the new Balimo Economizer is a step forward. Enjoy your day!
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343

    I like em to and I am always open to new products. Yes, the space for little fingers is limited, but my first experience with the Carrier new generation economizers was,....Well Bad Design. They have diagnostic LED's. Did you ever try to see the LED's in the sunlight? All Led's look like they are on!;-) Engineers behind the desk,..Hummm.

    Mike T.
  • carl p.
    carl p. Member Posts: 3

    ac without power can this be done? if so how?
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343

    What exactly do you mean? A/C without power.

    Mike T.
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    I love economizers even when

    not required by code. Here in MA, any system over five tons has to have either airside or waterside economizer. But below that they still payback reasonably especially in commercial applications.

    Here in MA also, if you read between the lines, airside economizers have to be enthalpy-based, total heat not just sensible heat.
  • carl p.
    carl p. Member Posts: 3

    less try cooling without power.
    iam taking hvac at boces at night.
    somebody was talking about this.
    maybe they did not know what they were talking about.
    is there something like this?
  • Ken D.
    Ken D. Member Posts: 836
    I second that motion.

    Economizers. I see so many that have been disconnected and bypassed. It seems hardly anyone knows about them. Or how about new residential flame safeguard controls.
  • craig_4
    craig_4 Member Posts: 14
    direct flame sense

    need help! cant figure out how to test flame sense on a system that uses the hot surface ignitor as the flame sensor. really dont want to smoke my dmm. also wondering how to install a retrofit remote sensor. thanx in advance
  • jim lockard
    jim lockard Member Posts: 1,059
    Free cooling

    Perhaps you took the term free cooling out of context. Free cooling is when the out door temp is such that by running the fan(s) in econmizer mode you can cool the building without the help of the compressors or chillers. Best Wishes J.Lockard
  • carol_3
    carol_3 Member Posts: 397
    direct flame sense

    I'd say go to the manufacturer's website and see what they say for troubleshooting. Fpr example, if it's a Honeywell S89, go to customer.honeywell.com. In the lower right corner, enter S89 and click on the little arrow. On the screen that comes up, click on pdf at the far left. Then up come the instructions for the S89. Scroll all the way to the end of the document for troubleshooting. By the way, on these systems, the #1 problem is grounding the burner to the ignition module. #1 problem is loose wiring.
  • carol_3
    carol_3 Member Posts: 397

    Thanks for the topic, Mike. I love economizers, but then I live in Colorado, a very dry climate. I'll summarize what folks have been saying here. An economizer is a outside air damper plus controller to open the damper if both the temperature and humidity (the combination is called "enthalpy") are low enough to be better than air conditioning. So, if the outside air is 60 degrees and 10% humidity, and the building is calling for cooling, it makes sense to bring in outside air instead of running the air conditioning. It's called "free cooling" because it costs next to nothing--you don't have to run the compressor.
    If the climate is dry, it's a no-brainer. If the climate is humid, you probably won't be able to use it most of the time.
    There are lots of problems with the older systems, starting with the fact that lots of guys don't understand what the thing's supposed to do, let alone how it works.
    Another problem is the older controls, starting with the fact that not that long ago, before electronic controls, we depended upon human hair in the humidistat to sense the humidity. When the hair wore out, the control didn't work. Without a control to sense humidity, the economizer is sunk, because that's half the game.
    The biggest obstacle to using economizers now is that they have a bad reputation because still lots of folks don't know what they're supposed to do, or how they do it. Add to that old controls that no one understands anymore, and some dampers crammed permanently open with broomsticks, and we have a lot of "duh, dunno" going on.
  • carol_3
    carol_3 Member Posts: 397
    Arctic vacation

    I went on vacation to the Arctic Ocean on the northern coast of Alaska. It was still frozen, so I at last was able to walk on water. :) It was chilly up there, in the low forties, but the wind was what made it uncomfortable. Stayed in employee housing, which was like a low class college dorm with toilets and showers down the hall. The only problem with the place was that it was too hot in there. So I adjusted the radiator valves, duh, and the next morning folks were commenting that it was a lot more comfortable in there. My little contribution to humankind!
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343

    Great explanation. Why in the world would you want to go to Alaska? I guess it's beautiful, but DANG....;-)

    Mike T.
  • carol_3
    carol_3 Member Posts: 397

    yeh, him.
  • Pat Clark_2
    Pat Clark_2 Member Posts: 102

    I went to Alaska for a vacation in May 1977. I'm still here.

    We live in the neatest little igloo and ride Polar Bears to work. You have to chip through 5 ft of ice to get down to the frozen ground to plant your garden (we only grow frozen vegetables). We ice skate instead of jog. In the summer it is always light and you can't sleep, in the winter it is always dark and you can't see.

    Come visit sometime, you might be surprised.

    PS Our economizers work great, hardly ever have to turn the air conditioning on.

    Pat (Alaska Time) Clark
  • Brad White_91
    Brad White_91 Member Posts: 25
    Thank you for asking, Jeff! Excellent question.

    An economizer is a control device or system of devices, usually consisting of dampers, damper motors, sensors and controls.

    What an economizer does is to evaluate outdoor temperature, discharge temperature and return air temperature (and humidity if an "enthalpy economizer). The controls make a decision to use outside air in greater proportion and less return air when this benefits the energy use.

    This is more useful in commercial applications and is required by many energy codes when over a certain tonnage (usually five tons).

    In short, a system will take in up to 100% outside air when the temperature is between 50 and say, 72 degrees. At these temperatures they provide free cooling at the lower end and less energy use to cool the higher end rather than return air which might be warmer.

    Above 72 degrees the OA closes to a minimum consistent with good IAQ. Below 50 degrees the OA and RA mix in proportion to maintain cooling setpoint.

    With enthalpy control the range is extended based on total heat of the airstreams. Whenever OA enthalpy is lower than indoor enthalpy, OA is favored. IOW: A dry 68 degrees OA trumps a moist 60 degree OA temperature.

    Does that make sense?

    EDIT: P.S.: Now that I wrote this, I see Carol already did... oh well... another view of the same scenery.. I like her explanation better though..
  • Bakerdog
    Bakerdog Member Posts: 3
    thermostat advice

    We have installed a new air handler in our attic that will be used only for cooling our second story. The second story will be heated with two zones of radiant heat. I'm looking for recommended thermostat which will allow me to control both zones of heat and the cooling from one location, with a satellite temperature sensor to measure the heat from the other zone.

    The first floor will (ideally) control two zones of radiant heat, auxilliary forced air heat and air conditioning (single zone). I'm also hoping to find a thermostat for that application.

    The variety of thermostats is overwhelming, and I don't need a lot of the bells and whistles.
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