Buderus Trip To Germany!

Ted_9

Sounds great. If you go to Buderus.com, browse through every country's web site to see what other Buderus products they have. One time I found a Buderus mini split. I just came back from Greece and found some Buderus dealers with stores and this sign. I think it was damaged in a recent thunder storm. BTW, that pic was taken while driving in the car.


I'm going to Viessmann soon. I'm sure I'll have a great time as well. Who knows, maybe Buderus next year.

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Jamie_6

What a wonderful trip!

Boy, if you think the Buderus facilities in the United States are impressive you should see the factories & facilities in Germany! What an extremely efficient and effective operation / production line. Once again reassuring our decision on using this fine line of products.


If any of you ever get the opportunity to go abroad with Buderus I would not let the opportunity pass you by. Much like their first class boiler they treat you like royalty the entire time you are with them. We got to see there cast iron factory, which was immaculate. (Borderline being able to eat off of the floor of the actual casting facility) The stainless factory where they build all the indirects and 90 plus boilers. (Which was impressively automated with welding robots?) And the assembly line where all the 2107 are assembled.


After the factory tour we where able to view the German training facility much like the one we have here in the States but with a few more products then we have here. Man are they light years ahead of us on fuel conservation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have a blue flame burner that goes on front of their oil fired series boilers combined with the Logamatic 2107 which gives you an operating efficiency above 90 percent. They also have a heat exchanger that attaches to the back of there oil fired boilers which allows these boilers to become fully condensing 90 plus oil-fired cast-iron boilers. WOW! Not to mention we got to see the GB we have here in the States but with a board which allows it to have set back and an additional outdoor reset.


Then there was my personal favorite. Buderus Solar panels! These puppies where unbelievable. They attached to a pumping station connected to an indirect and gave you the ability of a duel fuel system. Powered off of gas and solar rays. It was a beautiful system. I actually BEGGED to be able to test them here in the States. Offering to pay the price of the panels and the shipping too.


Put on your seatbelts fellows it is going to be a fun ride the next couple of years.

Attached are a few random pictures of what we got to see!

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Steamhead (in transit)

Ahhh, so that's where you've been

welcome back, and how about some more pics? ;-)

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DanHolohan

I was at that plant twice.

Qute a place. I'm glad you got to see it.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Solar Question

These puppies where unbelievable. They attached to a pumping station connected to an indirect and gave you the ability of a duel fuel system. Powered off of gas and solar rays. It was a beautiful system.

Anything at all like the attached diagram? I've been toying with this idea for quite a while. Essentially it allows solar to supply either the space heating in virtual real-time (low supply temp requirement) or store a rather small amount of heat that's either sent to the DHW or space heating system--either as a boost to boiler output or as a sole supplier. Note the only additional circulator is for the solar circuit.

Solarstar

Hi Mike maybee I'll study the solar dwg. some more but still confused with the mixing/tempering valves here and where all the flow is going ???? Will this drawing actually work as piped ??? Paul

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Will this drawing actually work as piped ???

I don't know as I haven't built it yet. Am working towards getting the required components. Have a 120-gallon indirect, but still need the dual-coil tank and evacuated tube collector. Will probably take me years...

I've posted here before asking that same question. Little if any response.

Illustrated is the the way I believe it can work with little in the way of additional control and nothing from the Vitodens save knowing if the burner is or is not firing.

In this very simple mode the solar can only contribute to space heating when the burner is cycling, e.g. system loss is lower than minimum modulation. It's really my idea of providing modulation below the minimum firing rate of a modulating boiler.

With more sophisticated control it could make much more intelligent and efficient decisions.

-----------------------------------------------------

As to flow:

Whenever space heating is required the boiler circulator is running.

When the burner is off, the higher the temperature in the solar tank than the temperature of the supply water, the less (note edit from "more" to "less"--sorry!!!) the supply is diverted through the solar tank itself--thus utilizing the heat contained and produced via the solar HX. In other words, the closer the two temperatures the less diversion--the greater their difference the more the diversion. This will in turn keep the return temperature from falling as fast as it would and thus prevent the boiler from producing small batches (pulses) of heat...

Solarstar

OK Mike I'mstill digesting the info on this dwg..I understand the small tank concept in winter(heat mode),but would need to be big in the summer due to lots of sun or another pump/or thermosyphyn to move the heat over to the larger tank (DHW). would these "mixers" be electrically controlled ..or standard TMV's be fast enough to actuate. Maybe we should carry this post over to EFF/Energy section on the wall. Paul P.S. I have most of these components. Just trying to figure out the whats what with how this would work in the real world without issues or babysitting ...but thats R&D for you.thanks for the drawing....

Jamie_6

Dead on Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to do this application in my own home.

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ScottMP

Hey Jamie

Glad you had a great time. I went about a year ago and had a blast. The casting plant is awesome.

Was the oven going for baking the indirects ? It was off when we were there.

Did you get to Rudeshiem ?

Scott

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Are you serious Jamie? I posted that exact drawing here over a year ago.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The idea as I originally invisioned was mainly to supply the "bottom end" of modulating boiler operation in virtual real time. Logic being that such rather small loads occur mainly during sunny days.

When not used for space heating, energy is allowed to collect in the solar tank. When it reaches some temperature it initiates a "call" for DHW (even if DHW is currently at/above setpoint but still lower than the maximum possible to store). Such a call only lasts as long as the temp in the solar tank is somewhat above that of return from the DHW tank. I [think] it's possible to do this to a "stock" Vitodens with little if any modifications--but with a bit of trickery... Note how when drawing heat for DHW that energy from the solar now comes in via the return to the boiler. This should prevent the burner from firing--or if it does fire it should only be at a very low level to "top off". The three-way valve labeled as "DHW Mixer" need not be modulating--it mainly just needs to provide positive and complete diversion of flow to one of two paths. If my understanding of evacuated tubes is correct, some are capable of stopping transfer if a limit is reached without "burning out" the collector due to "stagnation". Obviously a tempering valve for the DHW is an absolute requirement.

As to the mixing valve for space heating: Danfoss (or someone) might already make a mixing valve that modulates based on the difference between two tempteratures--I'm not sure. If they don't, surely there's some fairly inexpensive device capable of operating a motorized mixer in this way. I have not searched for these components as there are so many other things I need first... My honest feeling was that even if such wasn't currently available it would be by the time I have everything.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Paul & Jamie

If you're serious about trying this, let me know privately. I'm not one to withhold information from public view and I've long ago given up on the idea of remuneration for my "weird" ideas, but this one might take some brainstorming away from public distration.

Jim Pompetti

Mike,

I'll post the back of the brochure after I scan it. They have had these kind of systems in operation for over 7 years.