Customers house took a lightning strike

Mark Hunt

Thanks for the heads up, but we are in after the insurance adjusters had their day(s).

This home has already been covered by the insurance companies and their "experts".

Good points to remember though!

Mark H

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Gene_2

Scorched Piping

I have a customer whose home took a lightning strike outside that followed the phone wire into the junction box and immediately burst into flames. It caught the wood joists, subfloor on fire and burned whatever there was around it. The burned Onix looks like the oxygen barrier is made from a aluminum mesh. There was a run of 1/2" Kitec that split apart at the aluminum seam apparently from the water flashing to steam inside. Even the copper tubing got hot enough to lose its temper and bend down. One of the firemen thought that the 1" Wardflex had gotten pin holes in it (natural gas) from the electrical arc and made the fire very intense in that one area. I will have to prove that when I remove all the piping.

Unfortunately this will be the third time radiant tubing will be installed at this house. The first tubing was Entran II. That is a whole other sad story that these poor folks have had to contend with.

Due to a recommendation from a "Handyman" the folks would like black iron piping installed, instead of Wardflex, for more protection from another possible lightning strike. What are your guys thoughts on that? In my opinion the amount of voltage and amperage incurred from a lightning strike can cut through black pipe like butter too. But for psychological peace of mind I will install the Black pipe for them.

I told my customers that next time they should not build on top of an Indian burial ground.

You will see in one picture that the line voltage CO detector is hanging by the power leads. It melted of the plastic box. The owner does not remember the alarm going off. Hmmm.

Darin

hr

Of course the steel pipe

will not prevent another lightning strike, I'm sure they understand that

I suspect the steel would hold up to fire better.

Sell them a lightning supression and fire sprinkler system if they want more piece of mind

Will their homeowners insurance cover lightning and related fire damage?

Pretty wild pics. I thought the aluminum in Onix was the O2 barrier, as it is in PAP?

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

glad

Glad the customers were okay.. My parent's home was struck by lighting also, what werid about it, got struck at the lowest part of the house, thru the tree while the other end, chimney with tv anttena sticking out like a sore tumb....
I was a short distance away from Lee Trevio, pro golfer,was struck by lighting at golf tourney...

Mark Hunt

I think


that what we are seeing in those pics are the cords in the tubing, not the O2 barrier. The aluminum is deeper and is as you say, just like PAP.

Also on this job is a Buderus panel rad that is leaking. Second one.

Ever seen panel rad do this?

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gene_2

HR

I thought that the aluminum was the O2 barrier also. But how can it be "mesh"? The seam that runs down through the Kitec seems like a possible trouble spot on any install. But then again we have it out there and never had a problem. At least I hope we don't because we some installed at Marks house!! Their homeowners insurance will cover the damages. Which I thought was great. The insurance agent also told them it was okay to replace the entire affected circuits of onix so that they did not have couplings/splices above the future finished ceiling. I thought that was pretty good too.

I was told that when the fire was going, a neighbor wanted to know who was using the fire axes in the basement. There was no one with a fireaxe. It was all the water flashing to steam in the pipes and violently hammering away. That is a sound I am sure many of us have heard before and it makes the hair stand up on your neck when you are close to it.

Darin

Mark Hunt

That mesh

is not the O2 barrier. That 02 barrier is a layer that is deeper.

Mark H



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gene_2

Hey

It did pay off for you to go to Heatway!!

Darin

Brad White_87

Not so weird....

Most people do not realize that lightning actually strikes upward; the Earth is positive, clouds negative in rough terms. Sort of the high to low pressure analogy...

The upstroke is not visible. It is the connecting arc or return stroke that we see. Small wonder the damage was low-down, where the completion to ground occurs.

p.s. I am not surprised about Lee Trevino. He is one of the most positive people around. (sorry)

Brad White_87

\"Honey, I told you not

to commit blasphemy within the house!"

I am amazed how localized the scorching is, bent copper but clear wood just around it. Amazing.

J.C.A._3

Good golly, what a mess!

Looks like they were very lucky that the whole house didn't go up.

I'm with HR and would suggest the investment of a lightning suppression system. The cost is right up there, but this won't ever happen again.

Just as an addition to Brad's post, I've seen the strike of which he speaks! I installed a boiler in a home a couple towns over, and the owner decided AFTER we tried to use the chimney, that he would like the "other option" and wished us to install a power venter. 10" of concrets, and a 10X10 hole in it later, we had the power venter installed . While wiring it in, I inadvertently shorted a wire and it blew the circut breaker....as expected.

As we were cleaning up all the rocks and dust from the hole making shindig, the skies turned quite yellow outside. Thunder and lightning started as fast as the blink of an eye. My helper, Jim, was around the back of the boiler, with his wallet right up against the feed/return pipes to the Super Stor water heater when all hell broke loose. I was still wiring the power venter in, and the power was shut off completely when the "bright flash" occurred, and hit Jim right in the wallet! The strike came through the ground and got him.

At first, he thought I was playing games and touched the hot wire to the pipe he was leaning on. I explained to him that I will, and CAN make fun of him all day long...but would NEVER put him in danger OR touch with electricity pourposely. The homeowner was just outside the boiler room when this happened and saw the flash. The wallet saved his butt !

True story. You can ask him! Chris

Kevin O. Pulver

HR is right,

Take the black pipe and mount it vertically on top of the roof. Maybe the Wardflex would make a good ground wire for it though... save a lot of labor you know:-)
All bets are off when lightning strikes.
When and why did "they" get away from lightning rods? Nearly all the old farmhouses and barns around here have them, and I've never in my short 40 years heard of any new installations. Why? Any interesting ideas? Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

I think you're right Brad

Most people don't realize that. But they could if they would read the book of Job in the Bible. Chapter 38 verse 25 God tells Job that He, "... made a WAY for the lightning of the thunder." It's amazing all the things that are in there.
I'm very interested in the phenomenon of ball lightning but have never seen it. Any experiences anyone?
Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

I think you're right Brad

Most people don't realize that. But they could if they would read the book of Job in the Bible. Chapter 38 verse 25 God tells Job that He, "... made a WAY for the lightning of the thunder." It's amazing all the things that are in there.
I'm very interested in the phenomenon of ball lightning but have never seen it. Any experiences anyone?
Kevin
Sorry to double-post. The computer told me to re-try as due to high traffic or internal problem it didn't go through. Obviously it lied to me. KP

Brad White_87

That is one of those stories

that make legends, Chris. I would love to see the evidence. The wallet, not the butt it saved, thank you.

I totally agree, a lightning protection system makes sense, especially if you are in an area close to ledge and near oak trees or had multiple strikes.

Of course one has to understand that the objective is to attract more strikes but conduct them more safely away. I was told by an installer that having one actually dissipates electrons from the earth much as those rubber hoses on the trailing edges of aircraft wings...heck, so little we really know about nature.

For lightning rods, we owe thanks to Benjamin Franklin, America's first Enginee.... oh, let's not go there again...

Brad

Jason_15

Brad

What do you mean about close to a ledge? Also, do oak trees have something to do with lightning? My home is surrounded by huge maple trees. Is this somehow better than oak trees?

Brad White_87

Ledges,

like mountain tops are a rich source of ground potential, sort of like a mountaintop just near the surface. That is how a lightning protection pro explained it to me. He also strongly resented having to drive the copper grounding rod under such circumstances...

Oak trees more than any other "draws more bolts" than any other tree. "The Mighty Oak Draws the Stroke" is an old folk saying that holds true. I am not sure why but trees in general being well-grounded and conductive of water by nature, you can see the potential (no pun intended).

Some species are more prone and less prone than others. Not sure which so I tend to avoid all. Especially if your hair starts to stand on end like this =:^O>

I have sugar maple trees all around my house, about 130 years old. My house was struck once before I bought it, not since. Just lucky...

Mark Hunt

Lightning rods


These folks had them. The lightning didn't strike the house, it struck a utility pole and followed the phone line in.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brad White_87

Ball lightning

I have seen what I would call ball lightning, July or August 1975 on top of Mt. Lafayette in the White Mountains of NH.. The sky took on a yellow hue then black clouds rolled up. We were up on the ridge, my hiking buddies and I.

Clouds rolled over us being pushed up by Cannon Mountain about a mile across I-93 (across the street as we said).

We took shelter in a crevice and the crackling was something to behold. Blue aura around the very tiny scrub pines at that elevation (way above tree line but within the shrub and lichen zone). We were later told this was "St. Elmo's Fire" but it seemed to roll along the tops of the ridge then dissipate. Not sure if that is ball lightning but it did "roll".

I can almost still smell the ozone. Claps of thunder withing milliseconds of the flash.

The storm passed as fast as it started. We got down fast, you bet.

Unknown

I read this

I read this somewhere, a buddy of Lee Trevio (pro golfer that was hit by lighting in 75) told him that his barn was struck by lighting and caught fire almost every year... even with the lighting grounding system... Lee told him to install a one iron golf club in place of rods, as he said God never hit golfers with one iron... His friend did and barn never been struck since.... Guess that makes Lee a 2nd lighting engine....never mind....

Ron Schroeder

Ball Lightning

Saw it once as a kid mid sisties roll across the livingroom floor, prettiest blue ball I ever saw, left no damage. I once watched the neighbors house get hit and follow the TV antenna line into the house. That one left a lot of ruined electrical damage indside.

Mark Hunt

Uhhhhhhh.......


What WERE you thinking???? (Smacking head on the puter desk)

Rememeber.............

If you had half as much fun as me, then I had twice as much fun as you!

You kill me Brad!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

John Ruhnke

White Mountains.....

Brad,

Quite a dangerous spot. Two weather fronts come together there. Up on top of Mount Washington they have hurricane force winds 100 days out of the year. One November weekend we went to climb there. Down at the base lodge on our first day they were recording 120 mile wind speed at the top. Needless to say we didn't climb that day. We went for it the next day though. Got about 3/4 of the way up at about the tree line and hit snow and ice. I just made it past a rough spot. I reached down to grab my wifes hand and she said no. That was as far as we got that day. We tried again in July and made it to the top. I didn't like meeting the tourists though. Some kid eating a candy bar just kept looking at us. We were are dirty sweaty and grimy. It just doesn't feel right to struggle up a mountain and then meet some tourists who drove up. They had that stupid bumper sticker that said "This car climbed Mount Washington." I told them that they should try climbing it themselves.


Every try the precipice in Acadia? It is one awesome trail. Those ladder rungs are great. One off camber ledge scared the daylights out of me. One slip and you fall about 500 feet!! Made it to the top though. I took an easier way down.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

S Ebels

Lightning stories

When my mom was just a young girl, their farmhouse was hit by lightning while they were all having lunch at the kitchen table. She recalled that a ball of "white heat" burst out of the wall alongside the cookstove and literally bounced across the kitchen floor. It passed close to my grand dad's leg and went out through the wall on the other side of the kitchen. Grandpa was struck mute for a few days but then snapped out of it and suffered no other effects, living to the age of 91.
As an interesting note, grandpa was the first farm on their road to have elctricity and a telephone installed in his house. After that episode he had lightning rods installed on the barn and house where they still are to this day. His crotchety old Dutch speaking neighbor came over and told him that he was defying God by trying to prevent a lightning accident on his farm. Grandpa, in his quiet and always common sensical manner, clamly asked the neighbor if he would try to put out a fire caused by lightning on his own barn or house. The neighbor got the point immediately and that was the end of that theological discussion.

The worst lightning damage I have ever seen was in a house that was not itself, directly hit. As near as the power company could figure out, the transformer across the street was hit and instead of blowing everything out, it fused things together in there allowing high voltage (13,000) directly into the house. The triplex service drop didn't take but a few seconds to burn off but in that span of time absolutely anything connected to the wiring in the house burst into flame. I was called to provide an estimate for repair of the furnace so I got to see this all firsthand. There were chunks of romex hanging out of the walls and every single thing that was plugged into an outlet or wired direct was burned or blown apart. I remember looking into the breaker box and seeing bakelite dust in the bottom of it. The breakers were gone. There was an outline of the buss bar imprinted in the back of the box and the buss bar was a pile of slag laying in the bakelite dust. The poor old gal and her hubby had just crawled into the sack and ran out into the storm with nothing but the clothes on their back. Fortunately for them, the house didn't burn.


PS: IIRC, electrical code now requires gas pipe to be bonded back to the ground rod as well as metallic plumbing pipe.

Bob Harper

be careful

Posting such pics on a public forum is risky. You included somebody's name in the pics and made comments as to the cause and origin of the fire. Unless you are a license Cause & Origin fire investigator I suggest you delete this thread. Your comments and pics are subject to discovery and you can be held accountable for them. Before you remove anything, make you the C&O and attorney for the homeowner have released it. Otherwise you could be committing a "spoliation" of evidence, which put you in hot water with the judge. Generally, pipes hit by lightning will be tested in a lab with engineers from all the parties present: builder, plumber/ HVAC, wholesaler, electrician, appliance mfrs., etc.

If you are being hired for remediation I suggest you stick to that and keep discussion as to the cause, origin and behavior of materials to the C&O.

Just some friendly advice.

FYI, unless you are a licensed lightning protection engineer, I would refrain from giving advice on what to do or not. Also, the better grounded a system is, some feel the higher the propensity to take a hit. Last, Trac Pipe makes a special CSST to dissipate lightning energy.

Unknown

uh ohhh

An (attorney?) lighting hit the learning thread and trying to do catastrope our inquiry minds?

Kevin O. Pulver

Interesting Steve,

concerning "defying God" by using lightning rods. Somewhere I read of the old "fanning mills" that they used to mechanically shake out grain and separate the chaff.
Apparently they were called "the devil's wind" by the same crotchety type of people. They thought they were reducing their dependance on God's natural wind. Some pretty strange ideas out there, but interesting. Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

Oh come on Bob

> Posting such pics on a public forum is risky. You

> included somebody's name in the pics and made

> comments as to the cause and origin of the fire.

> Unless you are a license Cause & Origin fire

> investigator I suggest you delete this thread.

> Your comments and pics are subject to discovery

> and you can be held accountable for them. Before

> you remove anything, make you the C&O and

> attorney for the homeowner have released it.

> Otherwise you could be committing a "spoliation"

> of evidence, which put you in hot water with the

> judge. Generally, pipes hit by lightning will be

> tested in a lab with engineers from all the

> parties present: builder, plumber/ HVAC,

> wholesaler, electrician, appliance mfrs., etc.

> If you are being hired for remediation I suggest

> you stick to that and keep discussion as to the

> cause, origin and behavior of materials to the

> C&O.

>

> Just some friendly advice.

>

> FYI,

> unless you are a licensed lightning protection

> engineer, I would refrain from giving advice on

> what to do or not. Also, the better grounded a

> system is, some feel the higher the propensity to

> take a hit. Last, Trac Pipe makes a special CSST

> to dissipate lightning energy.



Bob, I would submit that if Darin is NOT a licensed cause and effect fire investigator that would be the BEST reason he could post his opinion with full immunity.
As to the Trac Pipe CSST, the Wardflex they mentioned is almost identical, just a different brand. Nothing, but nothing, is guaranteed to survive a lightning strike.
Fear-mongering insurance attorneys are one of America's great ills. I'm reminded of the late Red Adair oil well fire fighter. Red's metal hardhats weren't in compliance with regulations, a hot shot insurance punk came to straighten him out. The two drove closer and closer to a roaring well fire. Winds generated by the inferno sand blasted the car and rocked it horribly. About that time, Red gets out (!) and leads the kid even closer to the roaring blast. When the kid's plastic pocket protector began to melt, he told Red he could wear anything he pleased, just get him out of there.

Kevin O. Pulver

Oh come on Bob!

I appreciate your concerns and advice Bob.
But I would submit that if Darin is NOT a licensed cause and effect fire investigator that would be the BEST reason he could post his opinion with full immunity.
As to the Trac Pipe CSST, the Wardflex they mentioned is almost identical, just a different brand. Nothing, but nothing, is guaranteed to survive a lightning strike.
Fear-mongering attorneys in general (and insurance attorneys specifically) are one of America's great ills. I'm reminded of the late Red Adair- oil well fire fighter. Red's metal hardhats weren't in compliance with regulations, a hot shot insurance punk came to straighten him out. The two drove closer and closer to a raging well fire. Winds generated by the inferno sand blasted the car and rocked it horribly. About that time, Red gets out (!) and leads the kid even closer to the blast; which was screaming like several jet engines. When the kid's plastic pocket protector began to melt, he told Red he could wear anything he pleased, just get him out of there.
We need a whole lot more of that! And we need a lot more people who will boldly and unashamedly speak their opinion without fear of censure or litigation. Kevin

Brad White_87

Licensed Lightning Protection Engineer....

Another category we never heard of...

While appreciating the friendly advice in the spirit in which it is offered, generally and traditionally lightning protection is designed by electrical engineers. The systems are then installed by contractors who may or may not need to be licensed electricians depending on the state. Some companies have a licensed electrician on staff and that covers them.

I do not think anyone was giving a "how to" here, just suggesting that a lightning protection system is a good thing... after that the installer would take over. If we could not give opinions we would not have a Wall....

Your comment on the better grounded a system is the more likely the place is to take a hit corroborates what I understand about lightning. But then, you are not giving advice here, are you?

JMHO

Brad

Brad White_87

White Mountains

"Worst Weather in the World", they are not kidding. Mostly this is due to proximity to the jet stream and as you said, converging weather fronts which, while transient collide often enough plus are lifted by the updrafts.

The people who staff the Mt. Washington weather station (231 MPH record wind) are a breed apart.

I can relate to the tourists. And the "This Car Climbed Mount Washington" bumper sticker? Good reason not to buy that car. One drive up and down can take years off the life of the drive train (up and down) and the brakes (down).

Attempting a Mt. Washington climb in November if you are a novice climber is made easier at once due to the lack of brain one must have to lug around, yet more difficult by the size of one's testicles. I think they balance out

jim lockard

ok

What cereal box does one pull that out of?
As for grounding and driving rods you need to know the resistence of the ground that you are driving into or your just wasting energy. The best grounding system seems to be whats called a Ufer ground, It was invented by Mr Ufer for the Army during WWII so that the Army could store bombs without fear of lighting setting them off. Cell phone towers are grounded in this manner today.
What makes any one think that an Electrician would know anymore about lighting then you. J.Lockard

Rodney Summers

hay guys here is a picture of my lightning protection system / lightning attractor. both me and my brother put up this tower when we where young for ham radio competitions

my brother is a license e2 electrician when we put in the tower we added allot of concrete for the base and that itself acts as a insulator. we cut the ground wire that go's to a big ground rod and we would leave a small space like a spark plug gap near the concrete base and we had to stay far away but you would see a fireworks show. :-)

the tower was never damaged because the lighting would travel along the outside. this was a few months before we added any antennas or wire. back then the antennas where allot of money so we had the tower up way before we had antennas on it i would never do it now. ;-) but it was fun to watch.

even now my neighbors say they have seen my tower take hits all the time and you could here the smack when it dose hit it's real loud. and it helps protect my house ;-)

thanks
Jason

jim lockard

WOW

Does NSA know you have all that on your roof quite impressive.
As for concrete Roosterboy it is a conductor of electricty and is part of the basies of the Ufer grounding system. do a search on Google. best wishes J.Lockard

Ron Schroeder

Roosterboy

Check it out here

http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/qsl-tower-assembly3.htm

Rodney Summers

thanks jim. bruce good link yea our tower has a base just like that dug 10ft down it's funny cause i had to use a latter to Cary the Sheetrock bucks of dirt out ;-)then we had a cement truck come for the pour they used a vibroplex to get all the air out.

the dish on my roof allows me to watch all the unedited broadcast from all different media around the world. i don't use it much anymore it was great for all the movies i can handle.but now i use the dish network hd video recorder. all moves are on one satellite

thanks
Jason

Bob Harper

the litigation game

Hey guys, I was just trying to look out for you. I manage risk and investigate product liability for a mfr. so I know a little of what I'm talking about and no, I'm not an attorney.

Mark, glad you hear it's been cleared.
Have a good one,

Constantin

Good Points...

In the last 25 years, two trees got vaporized in the immeadiate neighborhood of the house. We're on a hill, I guess we stick out more than other areas. I had a father/son team install a UL-listed and now UL-certified lightning protection system.

Besides a whole lot of copper conductors on the outside, they also grounded all the services inside the home to each other and the lighting grounding rods (3x 8'). Even the condensers and the vitosol tubes were tied in. Naturally, we also have protection built into every main and sub-panel and cover the incoming telco, cable, etc. services separately.

The thing is, you can do all these things for lightning protection and still suffer damage when you get hit. For example, induced currents in your home electrical system may overpower computers and other sensitive electronics in short order, so even with a whole-house supressor, lightning rods, etc., you still need a beefy point-of-use protection system.

clammy

wardflex

On the subject of wardflex which i am not fan of at all but that's another post but i had a custemers call with a gas odar and went to check it out .It ended up that lighting had struck a tree at the edge of there property and some way traveled through the gas line and arked a hole where the installer had a galv 2 hole strap holding the wardflexthere was a small visible burn through the plastic jacket and what looked like a acr hole through the steel liner ,there's one more reason to me not to use ward flex besides the fact the many ions ago there was a product that was simalar used in the a/c field for line sets it also after a while would leak and was impossible to repair it was usually replaced with copper i feel that years from now tre same will happen with wardflex and the likes of it .Lighting is a funny thing as a child my parents home was struck twice in the same spot another custemers home was struck 3 times and all 3 times lost boiler controls but only once lost there dual zone sanyo burned the wires from the condenser to the evap fan units and from the condenser to the panel what a mess .The last homew mentioned was equipted with a 1930 westinghouse lighting suppression system with copper wire and ground rods all over the place still didn't stop it from doing alot of damage peace and good luck clammy

scott w.

utility grounding

I would suggest the homeowner contact a specialist in grounding. Have any of the utility companies arrived at the home and just happened to change any of the grounding? It is a possibility the telephone line was not grounded properly. Another reason of such high surge could by the ground wire cut or missing at the electrical pole where the A/C drop comes off the transformer or the ground wire cut or missing coming out of the breaker box. The National Electric code requires all utilities have a commom ground at the utlity termination at the house. This is for safety of those persons living in the house.
I used to work in the telecommunication industry. Cell and radio towers are grounded differently than the customer premise. We had a telephone customer who would lose the telephone and electical appliances in almost every lightning storm. Customer got kind of sore after a while and called the office angrier than a hornet. Went out to inspect the grounding and found the customer at the very end of the electric line. The ground wire coming down the pole from the neutral at the transformer was cut off at the ground rod. Told customer to call the power company to have repaired and suggested the power company should pay for appliances. Power company paid & repaired. Never another call from the customer. Needles to say a grateful telephone customer.
Another case at another telephone company several years ago man was killed while talking on the telephone during a lightning storm. He was sitting in a chair in the house with his feet on the metal register. The surge came in through the telephone line and went through his feet to the ground which was the ductwork to the furnace. Big bucks got paid out by several parties including electric company, telephone company and the folks who installed the heating system.

Unknown

grounding

Speaking of grounding the electrical system in home, I saw a grounding to the incoming from well pipe and I questioned the inspector about it as its connected to PLOY TUBING and he said as long the code book shown it connected to the system, its okay... We are paying the fees to keep his job.....sigh..