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OT plumbing - Island Vent on drain

Terry St.james
Terry St.james Member Posts: 25
LOL ..ya it probably is cheaper...whoesalers are trading in their delivery trucks for Wells Fargo truck.....I am in Canada...just north of most of you guys in Montreal

Comments

  • Cold too
    Cold too Member Posts: 7
    OT plumbing - Island Vent on drain

    Hello All,

    I have a ?? about the proper way to plumb an island vent. Should both ends of the "riser loop" be connected to the main? Like the bottom drawing here:

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v300/uute/?action=view&current=islandvent-1.jpg

    Or just on the drain end like the top drawing? Can't see the logic of connecting both ends, unless there is NOT typicly a connection to a vent stack. In that case, shouldn't the drain be downstream from the "vent" end?


    Anyway, I have one connected like the bottom pic, and want to chane it to an indirect waste like so:

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v300/uute/?action=view&current=islandvent-1.jpg

    See any problems w/ this?

    TIA
    CT2
  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
    I guess..

    my question would be ... why bother w/ all that and just put a AAV (aka studor) vent on it ???

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  • Cold too
    Cold too Member Posts: 7
    Its what was there...

    and to add a cheater now means another hole through 10" of concrete - when there is a vent line right there.
    CT2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 3,471
    Real Plumbers will vent it as a bathtub or shower is vented

    Unless it is highly impractical...distance or structurally. Mad Dog

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  • Cold too
    Cold too Member Posts: 7
    Island Vent

    The reason they call it an island vent is because it is used on an island fixture (usually a sink) where there is no wall to run a vent stack.

    This one will be abandoned, but I am still curious as to how one sould be plumbed. And wheter this one was connected properly.

    Always ready to learn something! : ) >
    CT2
  • Mitch_6
    Mitch_6 Member Posts: 549
    In massachusets

    we use a bow vent that loops up to just under the counter so if you have a stoppage you can see the water build up.

    then the lower section is dripped to allow the water out, the vent is then run across the floor up a wall and tied into the vent stack above the flood level.

    code states this can only be done with the permission of the inspector which is usually a rubber stamp issue.

    Mitch S.

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  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    connect both ends of the loop

    to the drain, install the foot vent up the nearest wall..thats bot the uniform and international code method..

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  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 998


    If there is a backup or if rain and condensation forms in the vent, the vent in the top picture can become a trap and no longer vent. That won't happen in the bottom picture.

    Here is a good article on Island venting:

    http://www.co.monterey.ca.us/pbi/build_info/Illustrated Handouts/Visio-Bldg. Details ~ Venting for Island Fixtures.pdf

    Notice all of the cleanouts required by code.
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
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  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    studor = stupid

    as mad dog said, treat it as a tub or shower & vent from below. anything else is a waste of time & effort. including those ridiculous stupid vents
  • Cold too
    Cold too Member Posts: 7
    Island Thanks! : D >

    Thanks Ron, Gerry, & Mitch!! I had to know that nobody's going to plumb in two tees for no good reason, but had to ask to find out why! Thank you Gerry, flooded vent makes sense.

    Fantastic illustration Ron. Sad state in this country, so many of us have learned (often by force) to second guess professional trades people because the quality of work often isn't what it used to be. My existing vent is quite close to the Monerey requirements and was probably plumbed in 1974 (probably with little code enforcement at that time in this area).

    Only other ?? is will the third drawing be OK for an indirect waste, or will it still require an island vent because of the sub-floor horizontal vent run (about 9 ft.)

    Thanks again CT2
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    Stupid Studor Vents

    At first I thought they were like cheating or some kind of low-grade cop-out thought up and lobbied in by the Inventor and his team of lawyers and blow-hards. After about six years of using them in different applications where anything else would be a logistic nightmare and a real Plumbers Headache; I caved in and use them all the time. They are real handy in Log Homes where the walls are not hollow and the cielings and floors are just exposed tongue and groove. Nowhere to hide all the vents! And besides, with the general dumb-down of the trade with water pipe stuck together with shark fittings and no more Practical Exam what's the difference? I bet all you guys have cheated with an Oatey Vent at least a few times when nobody was looking. Same damn thing only now it's Code by the lame International Plumbing Code. Uniform Code R.I.P.
  • from the state of

    From the state of backassward illinois, the studer vent or others as know as AAV ( air admitted vent) had been working over 4 decades in europe... I asked the mr know every codes why it wasn't allowed as long it s assceblibe for maintenice , the infamous reply.. Codes not allowed it therefore, can't be used, told him that europeans have been using them and the air and pressure are no differnt than here.. He slapped his hand on table, the codes book doesn't allowed it and that all I needs to know... Sigh, I'm paying my fees to keep his job?
  • by the way..

    I forgot to add this to the last post, for my island venting job, I use the loop venting as it used to be allowed and works fine all these years.. Otherwise, I'll use the studer vent...
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    bull crap

    what code does your area have as it's Adopted Code? If that guy can't open the book to the page it's in and prove it then he is full of balogna. I think even the Uniform Code will allow Admittance devices now. Why wouldn't they? They allow everything else.
  • charlie from mass
    charlie from mass Member Posts: 7
    Vents and maintenance

    I always figured the reason quick vents were not allowed in Mass is because the code knows no one would actually maintain them. Then sewer gas would be leaked into the house. I think people forget it was the boards of health that started licensing of plumbers and that public health is what we are suppose to be guarding. We need to do things the right way not the cheap way. I say quick vents are one more lets remove the skill from the trade item on the market. As I read else where "everyone" can plumb, I add some of us can charge to plumb and deserve our pay for what we do.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Real Plumbers

    Matt, are you saying that your area says Nothing about Island/Bow vents ?? Whne doing a sink in an Island ( the middle of the room, your code says nothing about a Bow vent ? In Mass we would no tbe allowed to vent it ANY OTHER WAY.

    AS far as mechanical vents, my understanding is that they have been proven to work. They are NOT allowed in Mass but that may change if some company can sway the board.

    I have installed bow vents for years and consider my self a Real Plumber since Jan. 1982, when I recieved my Journeyman's Lic.

    Scott

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  • mad dog

    I totally agreeed with you,, they are so stubborn and won't change til only when their "mother, the state attorany" allowed them to, or the sentators, which they go along with the plumbing board to keep
    their elected seat or DON'T know what they passed.... Here's another one, its illegal to hook up the dishwasher drain to the provided connection at the garbage disposal.... I asked why is that at the boring required classes for leinsce renewal... The answer..."its what the codes book say" I told him that for every rules in the book, there's was a reason before printing in the book... " I'm not here to argue with u, just here to tell u that ur jobs will fail the inspections if u hooked up to the disposal" . Finally got the "answer" out of him.... Will re-post his answer... Anyone out there have any reason not to hook up dishwasher drain to provided conntection at disopsal? How many household disposal does NOT have the connection? Thanks for gettin alittle bit off of my chest
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    well you can

    hook it to the disposer IF you run the hose up to an air gap fitting that is above the drain board. If you don't, when the disposer is plugged up full of rank, disgusting gargage, it can and WILL siphon back into the dishwasher, contaminating what you THOUGHT were nice clean dishes.
  • true

    True.. But the codes say the dishwasher discharge into its own p trap on downstream of disopsal drain... If the drain is plugged up and the disposal is running, the higher pressure will force the waste to dishwasher, while hooking up to disposal contection is on the negative pressure side(like pump impeller) preventing the back up... I tried explaning this to the inspector and he said we are doing by the book and pump impeller have nothing to do with plumbing system.... Another sigh...
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    dishwasher should discharge into standpipe

    on its own p-trap with a physical seperation between the discharge hose and the standpipe, so backed up drain will spill out but not siphon back thru the dishwasher.
  • Scott Denny
    Scott Denny Member Posts: 124
    Your diagram

    Ron
    Since Monterey CA is in UPC country, the diagram you show is not 100% correct. The cleanout on the vent riser in the sink compartment is not required.
    Scott Denny
  • stand pipe?

    U mean stand pipe like for washing machine discharge? What's the connection for on the disospal for... Hooking up the dishwasher drain and then making sure the drain is routed to the top of countertop to prevent blockage from flowing back to dishwasher.. Handyman or hack will just leave the dishwasher drain laying low regarless how it hook up will allows flow out to lowest point...
  • Terry St.james
    Terry St.james Member Posts: 25
    Vent

    I do not live in the same country as you guys maybe things are a bit different...only a bit. They stopped allowing loops vents here for islands. What is allowed is increasing the drain pipe one size...but auto vents here are now permitted. I prefer ,as it was said above, connecting the drainage as if it were a tub/shower...but if that is too far...then increasing the drainage diameter.
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    what does

    connecting the drain as if it were a tub mean? we use the international code here in ohio so i don't know what your meaning is..we use the island vent loop with the foot vent, or a AAV..we can no longer use a loop vent without the foot vent..tho we used to..the states not using either the upc or the icc will eventually..we had our own state code too..but the insurance industry pushed the issue under threat of statewide higher rates..they want only one of the ''model'' codes used..

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  • Terry St.james
    Terry St.james Member Posts: 25
    Gerry

    Connecting the island as thought it were a tub means on your drainage line to the WC...a wye (for the island) can be left downstream. In other words last wye on the branch. This way, the island drain is between 2 vents...the vent for the lavatory and the stack(which serves as a vent).
    Now that we are on the subject of plumbing...are prices in copper going thru the roof there...a length of 1/2" copper type L is "list" at 84 bucks and change
  • is gold

    Is gold cheaper than copper there? What country are you in?
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    oh yea..pex

    is becoming very popular very quickly..i think the copper price spike is going to be the death nail for day in day out use of copper..we have alternatives now..i think the copper industry will enjoy the ride now, but i think they will regret it later..

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  • did that happened

    Did that happened back in the 70's, I remember my late co-worker telling me how copper industries monoplized the copper and the prices... PVC usage spiked faster than the inspectors and codes book saying no...
  • dann crist_2
    dann crist_2 Member Posts: 37
    DW Hook-up

    Two things here IMHO, reguarding DW hook-ups: 1 by planning ahead and providing an extra drain beneath the sink for a standpipe for the DW drain, it eliminates the need for the unsightly air gap and the expense of cutting an extra hole in the granite counterrtop for the miserable problomatic device. 2 water that would possibly siphon into the DW through the drain if it were connected to the disposal would either be evident as you opened the
    DW, or perhaps spill out onto your feet, or be eliminated on the next run of the DW.
  • never

    Dishwasher drain will never siphoned back into dishwasher when drain is properly installed to the most top under the counter and connected to disposal due to air "break" where if u connected into the drain pipe, there no air gap therefore u'll needs the unsightly air gap unit... Only time dishwasher will drain back is when the drain hose is lying on floor before making into drain or disopsal connection...
  • John V
    John V Member Posts: 14
    its a one way vent

    mechanical vents relieve negative preasure but do nothing for the air being pushed in front of the water ie; it can be handy and make a bad situation better but is not a means to cure all misdeeds.
  • John V
    John V Member Posts: 14
    copper

    the chinese are buying all the copper to satisfy thje growth going on with their , albeit spurred by slave,or nearly so, labor. The last time scrap copper was above a buck it was the booming Jpanese economy. No consperacy there. Go pex. Stay cmpetative , and oh yea , profitable.
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    I disagree

    If the sink with the disposer is plugged up, the waste water will certainly siphon back thru the DW drain hose into the Dishwasher, even if the hose is routed to the highest point under the drainboard. That is why you cannot use the disposer connection without the Air Gap fitting. Nobody uses the Air Gaps however, because they are a pain in the butt. Use a little standpipe like the auto washer drain, except 1 1/2 inch and direct your DW hose into a wye at the top to create an air break.
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
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  • I see

    I see ur point, Mad dog... Ethier ways, stills illegal in the codes book of Illinois... The "book" says, dishwasher drain must go into its own trap connecting to sink waste or I piece of the kitchen sink.....
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 3,471
    Now now Scotty I know your feelin better

    and I'm glad, but you know that you and I have different philosophies in many regards although we do admire eachother. Bow vent????? Must be Mass Vernacular. WE call it a loop vent. Is it better than NO vent? Yes! Are there better ways to vent? Yes? We use Studor vents when we have no other reasonable choice. I don't believe in flexible supplies and I am not crazy about Mechanical vents....its only a matter of time until they fail. Glad you're back....put your head gear on......Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 3,471
    Now now Scotty I know your feelin better

    and I'm glad, but you know that you and I have different philosophies in many regards although we do admire eachother. Bow vent????? Must be Mass Vernacular. WE call it a loop vent. Is it better than NO vent? Yes! Are there better ways to vent? Yes? We use Studor vents when we have no other reasonable choice. I don't believe in flexible supplies and I am not crazy about Mechanical vents....its only a matter of time until they fail. Glad you're back....put your head gear on......Mad Dog

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