TN4 Survey

Mitch_4

No biggie...just wondering. Just took the new Utica boiler training and that is the interface module they use. I know the Ultra uses the same boiler control..I assume they are.

Looking forward to TN4 training next myself.

Sounds like a way cool control.

Mitch

Josh_10

Just a little survey but how many of you are utilizing the 0-10V direct drive signal from the TN4 control to your mod/cons? Also how many are using TN4 without the direct drive feature and why not? Completly just curious because nobody else in my area is bidding TN4 controls.

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RadPro_2

> Just a little survey but how many of you are

> utilizing the 0-10V direct drive signal from the

> TN4 control to your mod/cons? Also how many are

> using TN4 without the direct drive feature and

> why not? Completly just curious because nobody

> else in my area is bidding TN4 controls.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 434&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



How many TN4s have you put in? How was the install? How are they operating? How much time did you have to spend educating the customer once it was installed?

I think alot of guys are intimidated by the system.

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RadPro_2

How many TN4s have you put in? How was the install? How are they operating? How much time did you have to spend educating the customer once it was installed?

I think alot of guys are intimidated by the system.

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Josh_10

Well thats why I am curious about others. I worked for the Tekmar rep for several years and controls come very naturally to me. My competition hasn't even bothered to take classes on old Tekmar let alone TN4.

The customers have been a challenge. I have about three systems in right now and about 7 in contract over the next few months. I have mainly been locking the customer out of everything but schedule changes.

Most customers are okay if they spend a little time. They really like being able to view the outdoor temp. One customer really gets into the scheduling and really enjoys watching the supply water temp react change and also enjoys seeing the average floor surface temp from the sensor I installed.

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DanHolohan

Josh,

why not explain how the system works so that others might learn. Thanks.

Paul Rohrs_5

Control Package Upgrade

I design and sell all of my radiant heat jobs so that I don't price myself out of my market. I then offer options on DHW indirects and TN4 control package upgrades.

We have sold 5 systems so far. Our latest will have

1ea- 423 controlling multiple condensing Knight boilers

2ea- 336 zone control modules

5ea- 541 heat only stats

3ea- 546 2H/2C/F to control heating,cooling, and fan

I am pleased with the TN4 equipment. Zone synchronization and data logging for individual zones are impressive. I would like to incorporate the 480/481 input/ouput controls for more versatility for "Away" modes and "Theatre" modes.

Exciting platform to build on with the Gateway controls for internet capabilities.

I would love to hear how you incorporate TN4 into your sales.

Regards,

PR


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DanHolohan

Paul,

same thing I asked of Josh. Thanks.

Josh_10

Wow where to start...

Okay well I will start from the top. The Tekmar TN4 system is sort of a dream controller. Basically outdoor reset is only half of the equation. It didn't account for solar gain or any other indoor temperature gain that causes more heat to be supplied to the room than necessary. So we were throwing heat into rooms that didn't need to be heated.

Tekmar came out with a series of controls that used RTU's to feed back to a central controller that would calculate a supply water temp based on both outdoor and indoors sensing capabilities. This was great but you had to buy an additional controller in addition to your 363 or any other combination. Plus the thermostats were really limited.

Also if we needed to install an HRV or an ERV we had to mount extra controls around the house. Same thing with AC if the customer wanted cooling we needed to control that seperatly. So now we had a mass of controls mounted in the living room of the HO.

So the Tekmar TN4 control system was designed as sort of a building management control. The thermostats are networked together allowing the user to make a change on several thermostats from one master. This also allows indoor air temperature feedback to the controller which in turn calculates the supply water temperature based on indoor and outdoor feedback.

There are many thermostats to choose from. You can now control that HRV or AC unit from the radiant thermostat. You can even control a 2 stage heat pump system and radiant at the same time. You can also install slab sensors and set average floor surface temp limits. Also you can install extra room temperature sensors and the thermostat will average the two temps and feed back to the controller.

Wow all of that and I haven't even scratched the surface. Now here is the fun part and the part that bugs me about mod/con manufacturers. So you have a modulating boiler that has it's own control system and only calculates supply water temps based on outdoor air temp but this Tekmar controller does indoor too. How do we get them to talk? And why do we want the boiler to be smart as well when it isn't quite as smart as the TN4? Don't ask because I don't know. Well there is a solution with a few mod/cons the TN4 system supplies a 0-10V modulating signal to the boiler and tells it to modulate up and down according the the indoor and outdoor requirements. Some boilers allow this and some don't. The Lockinvar Knight folks saw this coming and you can merely connect up two wires and walk away. The Weil-Mclain folks require an interface kit for an additional cost of $150.

Okay I need to get back to work... Anyone want to get advanced now and talk about wiring and other super cool features or have I said enough?


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DanHolohan

Superb explanation, Josh.

Thanks.

Mitch_4

Josh..

does the Weil use the Honeywell AM kit for interface with the TN4, I know that kit is generally used with the MCBA control for external interface, just curious if that is the one you are talking about..
Mitch

deltat

We still use a lot of 363 controls – I would like to start using the TN4s but the right jobs have not come along recently. However, we use the 363 with the indoor sensor and the Tekmar Remote Display Modules (RDM 040) on the most limited access setting. The homeowners love that they can see the indoor, outdoor & DHW temps.

Josh_10

If you are using a 363 with a RTU's the TN4 system should be cheaper. Have you checked the pricing?

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David Sutton_6

Thank you Josh !



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Paul Pollets

Thanks!

Good info!

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Josh_10

So only 1 othe person uses TN4?

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Dave Larsen_2

TN4

Just got back from the TN4 classes in lake Geneva WI. I've been installing Tekmar since back when dirt was still new! now I'm with a distributor, and can't wait to start showing other contractors what this stuff can do!I was a little overwhelmed in class, but when you just take a step back and really think of what you want out of these controls, it becomes pretty simple! simple and tekmar CAN be used in the same sentence.

Josh_10

Here's how we demonstrat it.. The knobs to the left hand side of the cabinet are 10K OHM potentiometers so we can simulate changes in outdoor, mixed supply, and boiler supply water temps.

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John Ruhnke

We have two TN4 systems out there..........

I have taken both of the TN4 seminars. I love the controls. I am looking forward to the network capability of the controls. You will be able to hook a server to the system and connect to the internet. They will be able to do some data logging. We will learn so much with these controls. It will be great. You can make changes right from your own home.

JR

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Josh_10

Paul I generally include it on most sales. I generally interview the customer to find out what their needs are then I throw out a number and ask if I can talk to them after they are done looking at all estimates. Generally nobody even bothers with outdoor reset out here so when I come in higher I explain why. Then if they still don't want it I revert to my base system which is a TT Prestige Solo (w/outdoor reset)with basic wirsbo thermostats and a Taco or wirsbo zone controller with zone valves. This is usually about 2K higher than the competition but they usually bid cast iron sectionals so I have an easy in.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Have been studying a bit and it appears that the Viessmann boilers (including the Vitodens) can be controlled via an external 0-10VDC signal.

From "Vitotalk", February 2005, issue 8:

"When the 0-10VCD input control signal is modulated from low to high, the common supply set point is varied from 0 to 100 degrees C proportionally. The set point demand is used to control the burner operation."

This does however require additional components (of course).

The interface is called the Vitocom 0-10V (I cannot find a part number).

The Vitodens requires an accessory communications board to open the gateway. It "piggybacks" onto the VR20 board in the boiler. Part numer for the communications board used with the Vitodens is 7134 276

Other of the boiler models may require a different communications board or such may already be built in to some.

I've known for a while that it's possible to connect my Vitodens to my computer--not only monitoring status, but adjusting operation, but I had not before noticed the 0-10V capability. I've been afraid to ask for pricing as these things are only mentioned in the price book...

Unknown

c'mon dave

You, overwhelmed by the control?

I've designed and supplied about 5 systems so far. I have about 10 more out on quotes. I find the simple system charts VERY easy. The wiring is pretty dam easy too.

The tough part is hooking up all the little things these controls can do too!

wheels

Mark Hunt

Our first


will be on the radiant/solar job we are starting next week.

I too just attended the TN4 training and I was astounded by this control.

Pics as they become available.

Mark H

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Unknown

TN4 is now our standard, we are doing several types:

-We use the tN4 541 as our standard thermostat on jobs with many zones, and tie them into the 480 user switch so the owner can go on vacation without messing around with a whole bunch of thermostats, with no central controller. Right now I have several clients waiting for the 480 to actually be released

-For all conventional boiler systems where we would have used boiler and mixing controls, tN4 is now our standard unless it's a very small system that does not need indoor feedback, where we may still use a 356 w/508 last gen thermostats.

-For Mod/con systems, we are doing two tN4 varieties; if we are doing a hybrid "viessmann way", we'll let the boiler control its temp to a low loss header, and we'll use just a zone controller w/54x thermostats to present as consistent a load as possible on the low loss without going all the way to true constant circulation in a multi zone system.

-The other mod/con variety is when we do really need indoor feedback, typically only high mass systems, we will directly modulate the boiler with tN4. However much more typically we are content the boiler's ability to run low temperatures w/outdoor reset and just use 508's or 541's for PWM control at the zones and let it run with just the OR water.

Of course, if we are doing two temps on a mod/con and need mixing, we're back to tN4. the last two situations assume we are doing the single temp, low temp systems which we push very hard for.

Finally, if the client wants to do internet monitoring via an RS232 home automation system or a mac server later on when those gateways come out, we'll set them up with tN4 now because nothing else on the market will give us data logging and internet monitoring for anything like the price of tN4 system that I'm aware of, and frankly I'M COMPLETELY DROOLING over the idea of downloading operational data from my client's systems and being able to view their system operation while troubleshooting.

My ONLY complaint is the thermostats can be intimidating to some clients and I do wish that they were very, very simple to avoid scaring them. It's not too bad, but it's too much for some clients.

Josh_10

You know communicating via RS232 has me a little disapointed though. I do alot of industrial controls and RS232 is on it's way out. So is modbus. Generally I have found it takes the residential industry 10 years to catch up but I don't think thats going to be the case anymore.

At any rate just out of curiosity what is your criteria for using a 0-10 or using the boiler logic? Do you base it strictly on mass or do you account for solar gain?

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Josh_10

Hey Mitch to be honest my memory is a little rusty on the Ultra's. I have installed a few interface devices but I can't remember for the life of me. I am not really installing them right now. Lately our standard boilers have been the Buderas GB142 series.

I was thinking I would make a call my contact at the factory for you but I just haven't found the time as we are very busy right now during working hours. Sorry mabe someone else can answer this?

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Unknown

just one so far

have only one tN4 system out there at the moment with 3 upcoming in the works. was so happy with how simple the installation was, the air/radiant themostats (544 and up) are a breeze to integrate into hybrid systems with its isolated fan/cool/2nd stage heat relays. operationaly i have never seen any controls that squeeze out every last bit of energy from whatever heat plant you use as tN4 does. my only complaint would be that the thermostats could be intimidating to some (older) customers, it hasen't posed a problem yet but i'm waiting.

Unknown

If we have mass and some solar gain and mild loads, or a lot of solar gain and any climate in mass, then we look seriously at indoor feedback.

Low-mass systems, or higher mass systems where I'm not so worried about rapid temperature swings, then we are content with outdoor reset and PWM thermostats. Possibly with floor sensors for minimum floor temperature sensing, depending on climate and loads.

Dave Larsen_2

overwhelmed

No, not overwhelmed by the control as much as how many things it is capable of doing and trying to absorb it all in a few days in class! had my head spinning a few times!