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\"Donated material\"
DanHolohan
Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,600
their response is just above. Please read it. Thanks.
Retired and loving it.
0
Comments
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This burns me up
I found out today that a local rep agency is DONATING a boiler, tubing and pumps to a contractor in my area that has never done a radiant heating system in his life.
The rep is also providing the design and will be donating some of his time to show the company how to install the system.
Is this right? Is this fair?
Many of us here on The Wall spend mega bucks on training so that we can design our systems for ourselves. We send our employees to schools to keep them up to speed on new technologies.
Then, a product rep comes along and does all of this for free to try to get another customer. I have to bid against donated material and "free" designs??? All of the tools I HAD TO BUY will be at this guys disposal for free.
Just so you know, the rep is doing this for more than one contractor in my area. He is currently "helping" another company bust into the radiant field on a HUGE home that we are also bidding. Again, the company he is helping has never done a radiant system.
The rep agency is Emerson-Swan and they are giving away free Onix and E-pexB. A Munchkin boiler is also in the mix for this particular project. Free. The rep from E-S is also going to be stapling up tubing for them. Any of you get to have a rep do your installations??? For free???
Mark H PE
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I can see
donating to Habitat for Humanity and even so only once in a while. That is one thing, but from what you say this is different. If it is as you describe, it undercuts those with overhead and payrolls to meet and who have as you said invested heavily into new skills, techniques and tools.
I agree with you in principle, Mark. Short term it gets contractors into the business but long term you have to question what your supplier is doing. Also, if the contractor has zero experience and the supplier "mails it in" (does the perfunctory minimum) might that lead to a screw-up that gives radiant a bad name?
What does ES say about this? Have you asked them? I would be curious to hear their side. How did you find out?0 -
Believe it or not
the ES rep told me. It is not a HFH house or a low income project.
18 rolls of WattsRadiant 3/8" Onix tubing and a Munchkin boiler.
The supplier has nothing to do with this though, it is the rep agency.
***Side note*** The contractor is on COD with all of the local suppliers. Think he'll be a long lasting customer???
I do not care if the rep was donating his time to walk the contractor through his first radiant install, but giving him the material for free is another thing.
So when can I expect a call from Emerson-Swan offering to donate tubing for one of my projects?
I won't hold my breath.
Mark H PE
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I'm with Brad
and wish to hear the other side.
With that said, if EM is doing that it should be donating the same exact items and expertise to eveyone in your geographical location not just one or two.
Something doesn't sound right and we have no reason to question you Mark.
EM?
Jack0 -
Understood, Mark
That is is not a HFH job or other like that. I mentioned it knowing that it was one on which you are spending time and precious hair (:^)> bidding.
And as Jack said, I do not question you either. I would just love to hear what they say; what their justification is. Perhaps they did not think through what they were doing. And perhaps now, they will if it still does not feel right. It may be something entirely different.
When I said "supplier" I meant any of them, rep agency, distributor, all the same to me from this distance. Forgive me if the distinction makes a difference. I can appreciate the candor of the ES rep.
ES is a fine company and we specify a lot of their product lines so this seems completely out of character if at all what you are saying.
If the contractor is COD... the situation makes even less sense to throw a bone to them. But at least the provider is up-front about not expecting to be paid. Do they have the local Dunn and Bradstreet number?
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Mark
The first job you refer to is for the showcase home in a 20 unit development called Louden Ridge in Wilson, NY. The builder, Capital Construction is going to be qualifying for the American Lung Associations Healthy House Program. The goal is to build the first Healthy Home Neighborhood in the state of New York, and only one of five in the entire US. Several manufacturers that Emerson-Swan represents are donating product to the showcase home (only) as it will be open to the public as part of an awareness event. Every product in the home will be labelled and include literature for attendees to take home. It will also be featured on television and in several print publications. Attached please find a copy of a letter from the American Lung Association providing more details. The contractor on the Louden Ridge development, 21st Century Mechanical has in fact done several radiant jobs in the past using our competitors product. We convinced both the developer and the contractor on the benefits of Watts-Radiant. This is their first job using Onix and we are happy to be on the jobsite to help walk them through the installation. This lessens the likelihood of problems on the job. We will do this for any contractor, anywhere, anytime.
The second job you refer to is a private home and the contractor is Digesare Mechanical. They are a close personal friend of the owner and have done several radiant jobs in the past. I believe they are starting a new residential division with new employees who need help coming up to speed with radiant. We are helping in the design, but we are not providing any free material.
Emerson-Swan takes great pride in providing training, education, system design, technical support, and installation help on all of the products that we represent. I know you are familiar with our people and our organization. I wish you would have picked up the phone and called to get the facts before posting a derogatory message about our organization the Wall.
Sincerely,
Jed Swan
Emerson-Swan
300 Pond St
Randolph, MA 02368
1-800-346-92150 -
I gave ES
a heads-up about this thread.Retired and loving it.0 -
Sounds to me
like this is very good for hydronics. Lots of positive exposure. Thanks for sharing your side of the story, Jed.Retired and loving it.0 -
Emer-Swan
Mark: you are bidding work in Wilson NY? That has to be 5 hours from you.0 -
So are you
donating ALL of the material for every house in that development Jed?
These two jobs are a drop in the bucket and everyone knows it. If these guys want to get their feet wet in radiant, then let them go through the process like hundreds of other contractors. Go to the schools.
Can I count on competing with Emerson-Swan on all of my projects? "We have a product rep designing our system"
How about I start sending every set of plans I get to you folks and let you do the design? Would you like that? What the heck did I even bother going to Heatway for? Why should I even keep the WattsRadiant Radiant works on my computer?
I am sick and tired of working and studying my bottom off just to have a parts salesman hold the hands of contractors that are too cheap and lazy to do their homework. While I spend hours doing the take-offs and heat loss calcs, the other guy is playing on his jet-ski. While I am paying money to go to schools, the other guy is on a ski trip. Nothing for him to worry about, after all, the rep will do everything for him.
As for that other company and the huge home, how many hours do you think I spent on that? It's tough enough competing with the "friendship", but throw in a "rep" and my hours of work are shot.
I have NEVER received a phone call from ES in my area to see if we had any employees that may need to be brought up to speed on radiant. Why is that Jed?
Thanks for everything Jed.
Mark H
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Thank you
Mr. Swan for what Paul Harvey calls "the rest of the story".
If Jeff Dirkson (spelling?) is still with you please tell him Jack from Grasseschi's says hello and let him know I am just starting to dry out from our golf outing at Norton Country Club which might be at least ten years ago.
Thanks again,
Jack0 -
Jed
I'm curious, how did your company determine that 21st Century Mechanical should get the contract for the 1st job?
While I don't know Mark personally, or 21st Century Mechanical for that matter, it sounds like you might be losing a very good and highly skilled customer in Mark.
Is this all going through wholesale distribution?
PR
Edit: Mark, I truly feel your frustation. This type of "Sales" occurs more than you think. Ask me how I know.
Keep yourself current with technology and training and you will always be the beneficiary.
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It's not worth getting ulcers over
The almighty "chain of distribution" gets broken, and repaired on a regular basis
Sounds to me like ES is going pretty deep into their own pockets for what they see as a good cause and a way to advance radiant into a larger market. This sounds like a win to me. Helping a radiant "beginner" is sure a lot better than the above post Steve E is involved where the contractor didn't ask for help.
I'll bet if you had a worthy cause job or a chance to provide a big win that ES would work with you or your cause also? Ask them. I don't think their intent is to piss off all the contractors, really
Is this a job you would have bid or worked on Mark? Sounds like a distance from your typical work area.
hot rod
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Wilton, NY
not Wilson, NY. Wilton is ten minutes from here.
All I can say HR is the company that will be doing this job is infamous around here.
Mark H
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Thanks Paul
Emerson-Swan did not award the contract to the other company. That was done by the builder.
I agree with you about keeping myself current with technology and training.
Look what I got in the mail today.
Unbelievable.
Mark H
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Life is too short
to lose years over this type of deal.
I had the same thought process as you last year when a major manufacture sold directly to an end user. Right out the back door to the jobsite! No rep, no dealer, no contractor. I was livid as this company really preaches the "chain gang theory"!
In the end the owner realized a pro would make the job work much better and I got involved. I made the exact same money as I would have supplying the job, the owner got a show case job that has been in several mags and manufactures ads. And I got my piece.
I also have some leverage with the old "remember when"....
Sleep on it and figure a way to work it to you advantage. You must have a pet project somewhere on the horizon. We all do Maybe a solar project for the local senior center, homeless shelter, etc, etc. Isn't ES going into the solar market?
hot rod
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Just like ol' Grampa used to say
"Don't cut off your nose to spite your face"
We've all been there. Working it to your advantage is how wise men make it.
It'll look different tomorrow
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Not to be ES bashing butES reps Taco in our area. Nothing but trouble. They won't even return a phone call so we can obtain a pump curve. What else is there to say??? If your not buying that day they won't talk to you. There too important to return phone calls or provide information and are very arrogant. Nothing new they have always been that way.
Too bad because we love Taco.
Ed Buckley0 -
lazy and cheap.....
> Iam sick and tired of working and studying my
> bottom off just to have a parts salesman hold the
> hands of contractors that are too cheap and lazy
> to do their homework. While I spend hours doing
> the take-offs and heat loss calcs, the other guy
> is playing on his jet-ski. While I am paying
> money to go to schools, the other guy is on a ski
> trip. Nothing for him to worry about, after all,
> the rep will do everything for him.
I am all for your ambition to further yourself by gaining all the nowliage that you can. However, if I use a rep to do my Heat loss calculations and take-offs so that I can enjoy the fruits of my labor with my family, how does that make me "lazy and cheap". Seems like good business to me.
Jealousy will get you nowhere.0 -
> > Iam sick and tired of working and
> studying my _BR_ > bottom off just to have a
> parts salesman hold the _BR_ > hands of
> contractors that are too cheap and lazy
> _BR_ > to do their homework. While I spend
> hours doing _BR_ > the take-offs and heat
> loss calcs, the other guy _BR_ > is playing
> on his jet-ski. While I am paying _BR_ >
> money to go to schools, the other guy is on a ski
> _BR_ > trip. Nothing for him to worry about,
> after all, _BR_ > the rep will do everything
> for him.
>
> I am all for your ambition to further
> yourself by gaining all the nowliage that you
> can. However, if I use a rep to do my Heat loss
> calculations and take-offs so that I can enjoy
> the fruits of my labor with my family, how does
> that make me "lazy and cheap". Seems like good
> business to me. Jealousy will get you nowhere.
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not jealous
Not speaking for Mark, but I'm sick of fixing poorly operating "systems" installed by contractors who have the rep do their thinking for them. Knowing how to install product designed by someone else is different than knowing why. Understanding what you know is the mark of a professional.
Good business ? Don't be too sure...
Guess who the rep calls when he needs help on a problem job and the installer's no where to be found.
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Trust me HR
My life is not consumed by the games that go on in our industry. I've been around a bit and I know how it works.
Emerson-Swan is not unique when it comes to this practice, the agency that reps Wirsbo in my area does exactly the same thing. Rep agencies make money on sold product, that is why they are in business. To make money. Me too.
Tomorrow I am PAYING to attend a Tekmar school on the Teknet4 controls and I will continue to expand my knowledge base.
Here is a "markism", (I first heard that term from Russ Rose while I was in Missouri at the Heatway school. You and I had dinner together at Russ's house)...."The car manufacturers teach us a lesson with every car they build..What is the biggest piece of glass on a car? The windshield. What is the smallest piece of glass??? The rear-view mirror. What does this teach us? While we travel the road of life, what is in front of us is more important than what is behind us". I amended this shortly after to include side windows. "What is in front of us is more important than what is behind us or along side of us".
I am not about to drop WattsRadiant because I feel that the rep agency is working against me. Dan and Mike Chiles have proven beyond any shadow of doubt to me that THEY are committed to the industry. We've all seen how committed rep agencies can be. Today they have this line and everything else sucks. Tomorrow they have a different line and the one they had yesterday sucks. My Wirsbo rep used to rep a different line of tubing. Before they had Wirsbo, Wirsbo sucked. Once they had Wirsbo, the other product sucked. All within 24 hours. (Same guy came to my office when the Entran II issues started to come up. He had a grin a mile wide. "See?? Heatway sucks!!! Buy my tubing!".
I told that idiot point blank, "If you start going around bad mouthing Heatway, you will do NOTHING for the industry other than work for it's destruction. If I hear that you bad mouthed Heatway to anyone, I will drop every product that your company reps".
Ah yes......."the industry"..........what "industry"??
I have jobs with E-PexB out there that are coming up on 15 years of age. Still performing.....but I was told that it was junk compared to_________ (fill in the blank)
I have Onix systems out there that are coming up on 10 years at least, no failures. Yet I was told that the stuff is crap and would fail. It hasn't.
Jed Swan says his company donated the material for the project i posted about for exposure. Dan says it will be good for the industry. Again, WHAT INDUSTRY?? ES wants exposure for the PRODUCT they sell, that's it! You really think they want Wirsbo attached to that??? NO!
There is no "industry" once you get past the contractor, there is only gross profit. Emerson-Swan is the rep for HTP in my area, BUT they would not touch the Munchkin when it first came out. Reason, "We have AO Smith"....Does AO Smith make condensing boilers???? NOPE! Once ES saw that they were missing out on a cash cow, they pulled some muscle and yanked the line away from the agency that ran with the Munchie while it was first being offered. The agency that stuck by the product when it was going through the "trial" phase. "Looking out for the industry" my arse.
Heatboy nailed it a gazillion dozen times in his posts, I was too naive to believe it. There is no industry other than an industry run by prostitutes. "Whatever floats yer boat baby".
This Wednesday I have an on site meeting for a home that will incorporate solar with the radiant. I didn't call any rep agency parts guy to help me with this project. The house also has a HUGE bank of PV cells and will be a featured home in a solar mag, listed as a "MODEL HOME" for the alternative fuel publications. According to the engineer hired for this project, no-one has suggested this design AND it will work.
I serve the industry.
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Tom (if that's your real name)
You may want to do a Wall search for the thread on load calc software. It may be an eye opener.0 -
Three cheers for Mark
Mark, I love your passion. I couldn't agree more. No matter how big any rep gets we contractors still have Choices! There are still good lines You don't control. I don't have to use your stuff. Get over it. Sometimes with size comes arrogance. I was told by a rep "we need to control this market." Same thing- "we now rep the line you have been promoting here for years". Life goes on. Some reps really help their lines others make me run.0 -
Speaking from experience
Being a former MFG Rep in this area. I can tell you this: WE NEVER CARED IF YOU GOT THE SALE ONLY THAT WE GOT THE SALE.
Favoritism runs rampant and if you sent plans to us we would fax results to every qualified contractor and wholesaler within 50 miles because we had to ensure that OUR materials were sold.
The integrity in our end of the business is nonexistent. Mark is now competing with the people who are supposed to be in the area to help him and they could care less.
I know Mark, name a better hydronic mind in the area? Hard to do isn't it. Maybe they should have approached him? Just a thought.
Great cause - bad business. Emerson Swan should have made this info available to all the contractors who use their products in this area because now they have made many many enemies and will have a hard time recovering from this one.
SL0 -
I was a rep for 19 years.
I never thought that way. We formed partnerships with contractors and helped them find new business. I still do that through this website.
I'm happy to hear that you're a former rep.Retired and loving it.0 -
My 2 cents
I agree with Dan- I would rather build an alliance with individuals in order to sell product. Initially, I am sure that this sold slightly less product, but as time passes I am seeing the benefit of my patience.
The reality of it is that it is LESS work for me to help my customer, as opposed to juggling it all over. It's easier to keep track of, and more importantly, I sleep at night.
Wholesalers and reps have always offered promotional pricing, either through counter days or shows, or even directly, so that a builder and contractor can get a feel for a new line. It takes a financial bonus for a contractor to stick their neck out on something new. I would be very surprised for anyone here to say that they have not had such an offer. As a rep, I do find it difficult to determine where the value will be in this type of promotion, and at what potential cost (as this thread clearly shows).
You might be surprised from the business that this builds due to the traffic through the display home and product awareness that it builds.
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Dan
Let me see if I got this right. You cared more about the customer than lining your very very deep pockets? There are a lot of reps reading this who think you simply taking the high road on this because of advertizing dollars from manufacturers. They pay your bills, it's all about money here and everywhere. Who's fooling who?0 -
Ex-Rep, now contractor
Cream rises to the top, Mark. And you'll be just fine, sitting on top.
I was an electrician turned rep. I loved a certain brand of electric tankless unit so much, that I dropped everything and beat their brains out to become the rep for Louisiana.
I was the first in the entire country to set up a VERY BIG electrical wholesaler as a stocking distributor for the brand, or any other brand, for that matter. The first order was for 140 units...not bad for a first sale.
First, the wholesaler sold them to totally unqualified & un-trained contractors & homeowners. I spent many days & weeks sorting out the problems trying to save the company name (and mine).
Then the maker decided they didn't need me, went internet, made huge promises, and sold 1,000's more to more of the above folk all around the country.
Five years later, I'm still getting calls from strangers who aren't happy with their units.
Now, in between helping rebuild the electrical infrastructure (especially the docks & offshore re-fueling facilities) of 95% decimated Rita-fied Cameron, LA. I work in my (grin( spare time, helping struggling survivors get power in their homes (I am one of only two electricians working in South Cameron Parish).
The Tankless factory sold (Rita discount price) my wonderful customer, Mr. Carl Stein, ONE RA-28 for a 4-bath, 3,500' two story house, with two kitchens, outside hot water and laundry???????. Besides this, they said it was OK to locate it in the garage next to the 200amp service. That's Ok, but it is sixty, yes 60 feet away at the end of un-insulated copper, from his master bath which has a swimming pool-sized jetted tub as well as a shower & double sinks.
I would like to see photo's of the "many other sucessful" radiant systems installed by the contractor who received the "donated materials".
Mark IS opinionated, passionate, professional, and he is invariably right.
Why didn't the factory or rep canvas the area to select the best man for the job.
Go get the solar project, Mark, and don't look back.
Hurricane season is baaaack, so I'm off back to Cameron in my waders. 7.5" of rain in 6 hours, Cameron just isn't getting a break.
Take care, Mark.
Brian, in Swampland....really.
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Brian-
Funny, I was just thinking of you and wondering how you are doing in Cameron- I hope well all things considered. Take care, friend.
Brad0 -
For me,
it's always been about doing for others, in business as well as in my personal life. I've learned that if you do that the money follows naturally. This site is proof of that.
Why so angry?Retired and loving it.0 -
Bottom line
The bottom line is we are all here to "Serve" our customers for a financial benefit. You are not doing your customer a favor by being here. Regardless of where you reside in the distribution chain. Don't show up on my door and tell me I have to use your product or buy from you. Nothing turns me off more. There will always be something better or less expensive or someone able to do it better on your heels. I buy products from people I trust over equal products cheaper from people I don't trust.0 -
design yourself?
Mark,
Does your wholesaler give you a discount on your equipment for doing all the work yourself?
(thats kind of a hint)
Don't crucify a great product because you are buying it incorrectly. Maybe your problem is in the supply chain and is easily corrected with a phone call.
Regards,
Steve0 -
Angry?
Just a realist who sees through the hypocrisy that is ocassionally spewed here. As a former rep whose job was to move boxes, that's what we did. I am happy that this has come up. This is the way the world works. It's money
Didn't matter who bought it as long as somebody bought it. I know many people in this area including all that are directly involved, do you?
SL0 -
So
why hide?Retired and loving it.0 -
There's a difference
between wholesalers are whoresalers... sounds like this guy was the later. Sell it no matter what huh ? I have many of my suppliers who work very closley and they get me the product that I need and its MY DECESION what I BUY.
Anyone who can't tell the differnce deserves what they get.
I have known Dan Holohan for about ten years now and he has Never shown anything other than a concern for his fellow man and a willingness to help others.
Sounds like it was for the best that you are no longer a rep. So ..... you sell used cars now ??
Scott
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Scott, Hopefully
We never achieve the status of whoresaler, we believe in partnering with our customers and providing quality merchandise at a fair competitive price. Thank God we have a tremendous reputation...
Rick0 -
Mark
I don't understand . Are you bidding on the same job that the other contractor is receiving donated material on ?
How did you find out about the other contractor's finances ? Are all the different supply house counterpeople discussing things like this to other contractors ? I'd have to wonder what they talked about behind my own back , if that is the case . " Look , here comes that skunk , 2 Week Overdue Ron " :0)0 -
Hmm...
" Favoritism runs rampant and if you sent plans to us we would fax results to every qualified contractor and wholesaler within 50 miles because we had to ensure that OUR materials were sold ."
And if this was the truth..........
How long did it take for every contractor that sent you plans to drop your supply house , forever , ( or until you were S-canned ) after finding this out ? It only takes one honest contractor out of the fifty to tumble that little scheme , if it were the truth .
Once again I have to say , grow a set and don't hide behind a made-up name .0
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