Window wall from ****

hr

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. Here is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. Ceiling also, 9-12 foot is not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

I use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. It pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. I have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

hot rod


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Scott Secor

Window wall from ****

Been lurking for years here, acting like a sponge all the while. Decided it was time to delve in with one that has me stumped.

We have been awarded the job of installing a hydronic heating system in a brand new 6000 square foot home. When we bid on the job the final prints were not yet completed. The client specified copper finned baseboard in all the rooms with the exception of the master bathroom and the kitchen. We did our best to persuade them into considering a condensing boiler with mostly radiant, but as is typical I guess the budget was too tight. I guess I should be glad the builder convinced them into hydronic over the forced air system they originally considered.

The foyer of the home is rather impressive. The room is roughly 18’wide x 18’ long with a 20’ ceiling. The room is above an unheated basement (for now). The single outside wall is almost completely covered with Pella double pane windows and a large French door. On both sides of this grand entrance there are approximately 7 – 2”x6” studs nailed to each other to support the door/window/wall assembly (about 12” wide of almost solid wood). Further out there are small closets on either side of the entrance.

We feel the ideal way to heat this space is with radiant. But with hardwood flooring over ¾” plywood our output is certainly limited. After measuring the actual floor space we found we can get about 4500 btu’s at 20btu’s per square foot. Unfortunately we need about 13,500 to get seventy degrees indoor at 10 degrees outside. Taking the liberal approach, if we lowered that number to 10,000 btu’s we are still way below the comfort level. There are three roughly 10” wide vertical spaces near the entranceway that run from floor to ceiling. There is also a circular 2 x 4 framed three foot high wall at the base of the stairway roughly ten feet long. We are trying to find additional ways to add more heating. I am open to suggestions.

Lastly, I have done some reading and been to many of Dan’s classes over the years. Recently went to Siegenthaler’s seminar and have learned a lot from both men. One thing I am certain of is the cold air from this “window wall from ****” will drop on the occupants like a rock. We are trying to eliminate this.

Sorry for such a long post.

Constantin

Hmmm...

Radiant is a good baseline option, but it sounds athough this space will need a two-stage T-stat. Perhaps the flat baseboard molding from hydronic alternatives can provide the supplemental output without the need for larger forms of baseboard heat?

mb_2

runtal

Runtal makes nice vertical radiators up to 20 something feet tall. Have used them before where wall space was at a premium.

Unknown

I'm in middle

I'm in middle of one job that just pored the concrete over slab, this too, have large amount of windows and the RFH isn't enough to handle the load at designed temp. I will be using CIBB as the supplelant(sp) heat with 2 stage thermostat.... Will let the wallies know how the outcome..

Scott Secor

Wish I could use some CIBB or even copper HWBB. Unfortunately there is literally two feet total of outside wall space (assuming no window trim) and about four feet of interior wall space. I am leaning towards tall narrow Runtal type vertical panels on both sides of the entrance. Another option is to install a roughly 12" tall x 10' long strip of radiator of some sort above the french door and below the picture window two feet above it. This might at least overcome the loss of this large window. What do you think.

I will vist tomorrow afternoon (EST).

Thank you.

mark schofield

fan coil ?

If space is at a premium in this area, might you use a fan coil unit stategically placed to assist the radiant. If it could be done asthetically.

Wayco Wayne_2

I've had similar battles

with foyers and glass. On one we made a radiant wall facing the glass in addition to the radiant floor. Worked well. On another we used a Runtal Omnipanel with all of the coat rack features. Dual function and good looking too. I almost used the Runtal baseboard. Very Good looking with designer colors to boot. Good luck with whatever you do. WW

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kevin coppinger_4

Beacon Morris...

makes a kickspace heater that mounts in the floor...sounds to me the most cost effecive way to go. go to beacon-morris.com...kpc


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Plumdog_2

I second that notion

they won't fit between 16" centers (except for the smallest one) but you can talk the builder into heading off a floor joist at each side of the entry door and use two units to balance the appearance. Or maybe two of the small ones will suffice. I have constructed my own enclosures for these when needed. They are the same as the toe-kick unit, but come with an enclosure to mount down between the joists. Quiet and effective.

steve gates

ceiling ?

Bill_17

Convec

Take a look at Convec Comfort Panels by Danfoss, they are a great wey to provide additional heat in this type of application. http://na.heating.danfoss.com/PCM/Presentation/CMS.asp?CMSUID=FC255233-C200-4CC1-8207-DBC54F0650DF&MenuUID=b4f37ebd-d259-4e66-9a03-a02ea6a91bcf

ScottMP

Years

ago rooms like this where heated with fa coil units. I HATE to offer this but maybe this room with high cileings should be Hydro-air. You get could registers under the windows or they could be the second stage to the RFH.

So Scott, A little tough with out the "old man" to ask questions to huh ?

I assume you are the Scott that Ken spoke about so often.

Lets us know how it goes, I know you'll come up with a good solution.

By the way, what about a couple of free standing radiators.

Scott

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soot_seeker_2

Thankyou

Scott and others, yes I am the Scott that Ken has referred to over the years. Thank you for the kind words. I'm trying to let the 'old man' enjoy his retirement up in Vt...

As far as options go, hydro-air is unlikely due to cost issues (no heating ductwork or hydro-coils in system). Almost no wall space for conventional radiators/convectors/baseboard, etc. Also, I have been warned recently by Siegenthaler from a job he was on where the air movement (from a kickspace heater) basically cancelled out the radiant floor heat output, as a result the room never attained 70 degrees. If I understand it correctly, with radiant heat you want as little air movement as possible. Please correct me if I am wrong with my thinking.

The in-floor heaters are interesting, but I am concerned about the air currents listed above (I fear the warm air will rise to the exceptionally high ceilings).

Another option I am hoping for some feedback on is us installing a runtal (or equal) panel radiator above the french doors and below the large picture window above it. There is roughly 24 inches high x 12 feet wide of framed wall in this space. Perhaps this will help eliminate the cold air from dropping off the upper window. In other words the long horizontal runtal unit would be hung eight feet off the floor, just above the french doors.

Again, thanks for all your input.

Plumdog_2

sorry

thought you doing baseboard thruout the place. By the way, I will be in No. Vt. in August. Came from there in '65. Is it still cold in winter? (kidding)

GMcD

The basic problem is the windows

Now that you have to design a "reactive" heating system to deal with all that glass (and don't forget the radiant cooling effect from all that cool inside glass surface), you can quantify how much heat energy and heating system costs are involved in dealing with that kind of window wall. Now, go back to the GC or call a window guy and see what the upcharge on the glass would've been to get triple glazing or some Heat Mirror quad and see what the trade-offs wou be.

Too bad the glass specs weren't reviewed before they got ordered.....

clammy

radiant cieling?

How about radiant cieling you could run it at a higher surface temp and maybe meet your lose between floor and cieling combined .I don,t know how well it will work for cancling out that cold 70 effect from all that glass but i have work in some older homes with all copper radiant cieling and they where very comfortable with no hot head sydrone going on .peace and good luck clammy

Christian Egli_2

Mount the radiation on a pedestal

How about a fin tube at the bottom of the wall of windows, just not one that leans in the corner like standard baseboard, but a free standing one, set on beautiful pedestals. Here is a link to one kind from Slant-fin.

http://www.slantfin.ca/comfin/fsseries.html

At the bottom of the windows, this will counter the cascading cold air, it will be perfect. Plus, the home is full of other fin tube baseboards, so the design parameters will easily remain consistent. You can add thermostatic valves inside each radiator, just where the sun hits, and prevent some overheating.

Airports are full of these free standing things, it should be easy to sell.

Scott Secor

Ideas

Radiant ceiling is probable doable, but the ceiling is almost 20 feet above the floor. I suspect it would be of little benefit that high off the floor where the people would congregate.

The Slant-fin units are nice, but the (opening) french doors fill most of the window wall.

I may visit the jobsite in the next few days and post some pictures if time permits. Kind of tough to explain in words what we are up against.

clammy

radiant cieling

Scot even with the cieling that high a radiant cieling system should work as i have been researching some radiant cieling panels for a large commerical building with high cielings and from all that i have read it would seem that when using radiant heat you are not creating convention air currents and as stated in all that i have read that with a cieling radiant system you are using radiant currents to heat not convection so at a phyics level you are still heat surfaces not the air which would conclude that a radiant cieling would reflex heat downword and add heat to the room to meet your heat loss just a thought .I know how hard it is sometimes to meet a heat loss espically in large entrance areas with high cieling .Best of luck peacer clammy

Edwin

kick space vs. Convec

Scott,

You should not be as concerned regarding the air currents across the floor being Danfoss' Convec in-floor model blows upward versus a kick space that blows across the floor. Placement of the in-floor would also be closer to the where the cold air is cascading off of the glass. With the internal fan and the required set temperature the thermostat will regulate accordingly based upon the set temperature.

Jed_2

How could you possibly

feel the "ideal way to heat this space is with radiant", with such a gross deficit unit load/heat requirement ratio?

But, If you must, panel radiators are "line of sight" radiant emitters. Is the "opposite" wall of this "wall of glass" available for, at the appropriate elevation, to mount an array of appropriatly decorative panel radiators to "target" the "wall of glass"? Would this counterbalance the "cold brick" effect, and supplement the unit load deficiency? They could be added to the floor manifold with TRV's, with remote temp controllers, for staging control.
Add a pressure balancing valve for flow stability.

Would this strategy be plausible? It seems logical, and cost effective.

Jed

Dave Yates (PAH)

Greetings young copper head!

Nice to see you posting on The Wall. We've heard much about you from you Dad over the years. Tell him we wish him a happy father's day.

We've had similar situations like the one you're facing and I too would recommend a combination of things. First & foremost, I'd look to vertical radiant wall panels. They can be sized to work with an existing zone's water temperatures and there are lots of nice add-ons like coat hooks and hat hooks so that guests will leave with a warm hat & coat.

Radiant travels equally well in all directions, so a ceiling would be another great spot to place radiant.

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ScottMP

There you go Dave

How about some radiant in the walls instead of the cieling ??

Any wall space Scott ?

Scott

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Scott Secor

Good ideas

Guys, your ideas are appreciated. I have very limited wall space, but I am considering loading them up where possible. There is a roughly four foot high x ten foot section of wall space at the lower landing of the staircase. Unfortunately, the wall is a half circle (as viewed from the ceiling). In that circular area there are 2x4 studs about every four inches, so it may be a problem getting the tubing in contact with the sheetrock (aka gypsum board for you "out of town" guys).

I remember Siegenthaler's method of radaint walls and have his books. I think I can add the radiant to this wall area with a simpler method, since the stairway is completely on an inside wall. Anybody have any layout drawings on how to add (relatively) high temperature radiant in a busy wood studded four foot high wall? What kind of output can I expect? Do you think the effort is worth it for about 1500 btu's of output?

If time permits, I am going to visit the site later today and take photos of this area of the house. Probably will need help posting, but that is the least of my worries.

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. He is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceilingd also, 9-12 foot i8s not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

i use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. it pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. i have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. He is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceilingd also, 9-12 foot i8s not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

i use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. it pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. i have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. He is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceilingd also, 9-12 foot i8s not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

i use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. it pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. i have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. He is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceilingd also, 9-12 foot i8s not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

i use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. it pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. i have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. He is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceilingd also, 9-12 foot i8s not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

i use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. it pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. i have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. He is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceilingd also, 9-12 foot i8s not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

i use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. it pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. i have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. Here is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceiling also, 9-12 foot is not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

I use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. It pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. I have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. Here is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. ceiling also, 9-12 foot is not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

I use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. It pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. I have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. Here is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. Ceiling also, 9-12 foot is not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

I use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. It pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. I have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to get the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

hot rod


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Radiant wall ideas

I've done a few circular shower walls with radiant. Here is one currently in progress.

You can get some fairly high outputs from a radiant wall. 40 BTU/ sq. ft. is easily do-able. Ceiling also, 9-12 foot is not an excessive height to expect some radiant.

I use the 8 foot long Radiant Engineering ThinFin plates. They are also available from SlantFin, Watts Radiant, Roth, and a few other sources. It pays to use the best extruded plates for a good tube fit and less expansion noise issues.

4 inch on center would be a tough go. I have done 6" on center with 1/2 PAP. I'd go with 3/8" PAP for a tighter stud spacing or skip every other stud, if possible. I prefer they spray foam insulate behind exterior radiant walls. Need to keep the infiltration to near zip for best performance.

Here are a couple how to articles.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/97569783250d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

hot rod


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

I'm with Wayne

I did a house with a wall of glass on the beach and heated it with floor, wall, and ceiling radiant. It worked awesome this winter. Bob Gagnon

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hr

Radiant wall pics

I'm still searching for the circular wall shots, hang tight.

hot rod

jwade55_5

something from the past

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=238687&_#Message238687

J

S Ebels

Scott

Welcome aboard! Feel free to join in any of the topics and ask any old question that's on your mind. Someone here will know the answer.

Vertical panel rads of some kind are the first thing that come to mind with your situation. I don't know who you deal with but Paul Ross from Hydronic Alternatives has been a great source of knowledge on panel rads. He imports Radson and Vasco radiators and they come in about any size and shape you can imagine. I'm betting he can get you fixed up with something that will do the job.

We have used a lot of each line and find them to perform as advertised or better. The Carre' radiator from Vasco is really sharp looking and comes in horizontal, vertical and corner models.

Here's a couple links to copy and paste.

http://www.vasco.be/english/products/prodcat.htm

http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/

leo g_13

Scott,

first off say "hey" to your Dad, next you talk to him from us here please. Next, see if HotRod would manufacture a couple of his hydronic dogs for you. They could look like the lions that us Italians love to put on either side of our driveways!

Leo G

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