Question regarding trade schools (GrandPAH)

Dave Yates (PAH)

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Teachers need to be graded too and underperformers who get poor grades should be reviewed by an outside group. Teachers who get continual poor reviews would be placed on something akin to academic probation and, failing to improve, tossed if they can't make the grade. And why not: That's what we do to students - weed out the underperformers or those who aren't really interested.

What if an independent group showed up unannounced from time-to-time and "tested" the students for skills learned/taught? Among those skills would be their ability to interact with the "customer" and detail what they found to be wrong with a piece of equipment or explain what they're doing - in layman's terms - and why.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

working towards improving the system

During a brain-storming session at Thaddeus Stevens College of Technology, the technical advisory board was challenged with the following:

* Assesment of current curriculum regarding graduates and their skill sets as that relates to their worth to any prospective employer.

* Determination - should this program be graduating young men and women with basic trade skills or technicians who know and comprehend things like Manual-J and D, along with a host of other technical aspects of our work.

The questions we were asked: do we want/value technician skills in addition to installation skill sets or do we simply concentrate on basic skills required to perform the work. Which one would we hire, given a choice.

The first challenge is what constitutes basic skills for PHVAC. What would you as a prospective employer want these students to have - down pat - in their basic skill sets.

Beyond that, and here's where the night classes we'll be teaching might venture if approved, what technician values do you prize the most? Sales training; troubleshooting; codes compliance; sizing systems, ductwork, air balancing; steam; hydronics - especially radiant; modern hi-eff combustion appliances, venting and other things beyond the installation mechanics - etc, etc, etc.......

That's a lot to ask, but I'd really appreciate getting feedback on this issue.

Thanks in advance for helping to shape the educational opportunities for young men and women who will be graduating into a lifetime of opportunity and, one day, shaping the future of the industry - just as you have done. If we stop for a brief moment and reach back to bring them forward, we'll be standing tall.

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Keith_8

Ed. Training

Dave,
We should be exposing our apprentices as much as possible to the full scope of what the opportunities are in the HVAC industry. All of the items that you laid out paint that picture. Installation mechanice who understand and perform service work are without a doubt the best employees. As an employeer that mentality tells me alot.

Unfortunatly without a proper emphasis on actual field training the theory portion tends to have less meaning.

In my opinion the trade schools should make a stronger pitch to local contractors to provide this opportunity.

The contractor and student both benefit.

Keith

don_163

I would

like them to understand the business side of what we do as
well as the basic for what they'll be working on.

I mean if they had a understanding of how much it cost to run a business and why we have to charge a certain amount of money to overcome the cost..then it would make life much easier on the both of us.

How many times have we had a great tech or installer think that we are charging way too much for what we do,but on the same token think they're not getting paid enough.

Personally give me a newbe with the basic and some real world hands on experience and, I'll mold him into what I want him to be.
Stick with the basic and we'll take them the rest of the way
and teach them how to apply it in the real world.

Sure it would be great to have a tech or installer who knows it all,but if that was the case he would properly be working for himself instead of one of us.

Thanks for the post man of many hats..I hope to hear more from other on this subject.

jackchips_2

Playing it

forward, Dave. We should have every future mechanic take one coarse from you.

We have taken many co-op students over the years and have given the VICA plumbing exam for the last eight. One of the sad aspects are the students who know so little.

Then you get the gold students, and there are many who have that desire to do it, have many skills but lack some of the basics.

Which brings a response to your question, what would we like to see.

Know the basics: soldering, cutting pipe, the local code they will be working under, how to read blue-prints, how to take direction without attitude, the ability to make a decision, willingness to ask a question and last but definitely not least the desire to learn.

We fully understand, when we take on a co-op student, that they are kids but it doesn't take long to see those who will remain in the trade and those who just want those weeks out of the classroom.

One question for GrandPah, any statistics from your area how many students graduated in a trade and remain in it?

We have a tough career path but one that is extremely enjoyable and fullfilling for those who stick it out. Maybe it isn't too early while teachers have them to also show the many other avenues available in the trades: foreman, teaching, estimating (my favorite), project management, engineering (we need more Brads) owner, sales and so many more.

Thanks for what you do.

Jack

Dave Yates (PAH)

re: one question...

"One question for GrandPah, any statistics from your area how many students graduated in a trade and remain in it?"

Placements are in the high 90% range for all local trade schools, but the remain-in-it numbers (I fear) might be much lower. No one is tracking those numbers.

One school is used as a "dumping grounds" for high school students whose administrators evidently think of it as a losers alternative, rather than an opportunity for students who think outside the box. The quality of instruction suffers accordingly.

Another trade school churns out graduates while raking in large fees from the government. One of their graduates came to work for us many years ago - with the same "I know it all" attitude he'd been spoon fed. Three weeks after beginning his trades with us, he asked for some time off so that he could return and demand a full refund. His eyes had been opened to the reality of how much he had to learn. He's become one of our best technicians.

Stevens day students must come from "generationally poor" families. Most attend free of charge along with room & board. The founder's intent was to break the cycle of poverty by offering students an opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty. They must take normal college-level courses - English, math, etc... - for 1/2 of each day & the remainder in their chosen trade profession. The course load is tough & they lose a fair number in the first year. Drugs and alcohol usage is not tolerated & they're tougher here than most colleges & lose a number of students that way. Fighting is not tolerated either and, along with any sort of weapon, will result in dismissal. Tough love.

Night classes, on the other hand, will be open to anyone and it is our hope to captivate, inspire and expose them to everything we can along the lines mentioned in these posts. Judy Garber (NAOHSM) and Dave Schwanger (oil business guru) are an integral part of the emerging team too.

I was initially asked to follow the existing course outline and content. No dice. It's a whole new ball game as far as I'm concerned and I intend to pass along what I've learned along the way - in a practical and down to earth manner with lots of mental stretching. After some deliberation, the administration agreed to let me stray far afield from the traditional and work it as a beta-course subject to peer review and certification. Might just tell a few stories along the way(G).

Check out this month's Contractor Magazine feature article for a story about my two-day teaching experience and what the students dove into - headfirst - for those two days. Dan Holohan and Glenn Stanton both played a decisive role by donating classroom text books - books that will continue to educate long past the classroom and well into their futures. They had an opportunity to grade me following the experience.

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Bob Sweet

Nice thread Dave

A good fundamental understanding of system operation and application (plumbing, hvac, electrical) is very important to the success and future of the student.

Often what I see with young people coming into the trades, is a lack of understanding of how what their working on is intended to function. Especially in the service industry, employers are so busy trying to make money and get to the next customer that there is little time to explain how what there working on, is and was, intended to operate

This has got to be very confusing and overwhelming to the prospective employee, and imo leads to high turn over. I think a basic understanding of new construction principles are the most important thing for the student to understand.

Specialized aspects of the trade (design,repair, technical application) are much easier to teach in the field when the employee has a basic understanding of system operation.

John@Reliable_10

Dave, It's the Teacher!

Some want to teach while others are thier for a paycheck.It takes a special person to be able to make a book come alive talking about anything, never mine hvac.I have found over the years a lot of schools teach how to pass the license test and very little about what we do.Dave, this might be the reason why so many don't stay with the trade, they find they don't really know anything.
John@Reliable

John@Reliable_10

Dave, I like you're thinking!

The last 18 months that I was in business I went thru 8 guys all trade school(3 different schools) grads and licensed by the state and only one had a clue,even he still had a lot to learn. Funny thing they all could tell me code but to work on something was a different story.I give up and now work wholesale sales and techical support. My son just started a 4 year plumbing/heating voc/tech high school with two teachers who are younger and maybe not just looking for a check. He's already used a pro-press,can cut/thread black pipe,and solder copper.He even knows what a B&G system syzer is, so maybe thier is hope.

jim lockard

think john's right

Most of the teachers are from the academic world and have never really mastered a craft in the vocation world. So the vocation world has become the dumping ground for those who can not make it academically. J.Lockard

RadPro

Kudo's to my teacher!!

Just wanted to let you know that some teachers do have a clue.

When I went thru the one year tech school for HVAC-R, I was told that we were being taught what we needed to get an entry level job to KEEP LEARNING!! That was why theory and books were used for the first part of the day and out to the shop for the last half of the day. Terry told us that you can't learn it all in one year and it would take years to really know what you needed to know!

1989 graduate of Quincy Technical Schools, Quincy IL. (now Vattorott college-still same teacher)

Don in SEIA

oiltech

Instructors @ Trade schools

Allow me to ping in on this one about trade school teachers.

I completed two oil burner service courses @ Wilson Tech Boces in Western Suffolk County , NY . I must say that the instructor, Ken Resnick was tops ! Not only can that guy teach , but he is a very successful Tech and business owner. He dedication to the heating industry is second to none. Some of the posts I read here do not do any justice to the great teachers with a passion for teaching and the heating industry and thats not fair . I am sure there are some teachers in it for the money , but my experience's because of Ken have been fantastic ! I am now working for a full service oil company (after taking the two oil burner courses Ken teaches) and doing better than I ever could have expected. Of course the student also has to put forth the effort to learn , but Ken makes that so easy because of his passion and excitement not only in the classroom and the lab , but also in the field . Thank you for allowing me to add my experience.

oiltech

Instructors @ Trade schools

Allow me to ping in on this one about trade school teachers.

I completed two oil burner service and hydronics and steam courses @ Wilson Tech Boces in Western Suffolk County , Long Island , NY . I must say that the instructor, Ken Resnick was tops ! Not only can that guy teach , but he is a very successful Tech and business owner. His dedication to the heating industry is second to none. Some of the posts I read here do not do any justice to the great teachers with a passion for teaching and the heating industry and thats not fair . I am sure there are some teachers in it for the money , but my experience's because of Ken have been fantastic ! I am now working for a full service oil company (after taking the two oil burner courses Ken teaches) and doing better than I ever could have expected. Of course the student also has to put forth the effort to learn and keep learning , but Ken makes that so easy because of his passion and excitement not only in the classroom and the lab , but also in the field . Thank you for allowing me to add my experience.