Duck-less Mini Splits (ME)

[Deleted User]

this, as usual, has been very enlightening, and educational to boot:-)

Thanks for taking the time to repond.

ME

[Deleted User]

Any advice taken...

Have a customer who is interested in retrofitting a hydronic heated house with cooling, and doesn't want to go down the Hi V road. Any experience with Mini Splits? I am aware that they do not meet the current SEER requirements, and he will be too as soon as I get some feed back from this forum.

Thanks

ME

Brad White_9

I specify them where I need to...

Visibility is an issue sometimes, but the evaporators are quiet. I have used them commercially and in houses. The SEER rating becomes almost secondary in that there is often no better or other way to do the job.

Daikin has a line that we like, multiple evaporators on a common single condensing unit. Not cheap but when you weigh the cost against ductwork and collateral damage, may not be a bad choice. But they are visible especially if high on the wall. They do have some in-ceiling units.

Granted commercially these we use in Tel-Data rooms. Thus far the servers have not complained...

Remote controls are the norm it seems -just what you needed, another remote!

The other side of me says, these are the HVAC equivalent of a colostomy. Does the job that has to be done, but you wish there were another way...

My $0.02

Brad

Big Ed

New Line

I notied the new line this year are using 410A with higher up to 16 seer rating. With more muti options .....whats the spelling of that line? Fusiue?Fijitue ? -something like that....Quiet unit too...The biggest down fall is lack of filtration with mini splits ...The new line uses a "Plasma Filter"...dont know how good they are ...yet..

The hardest part is finding a muti system to match the load or layout of the home.... Extra remotes around the house is a plus or minus....The extra line sets may take some appeal from the outside of the home.....I recommend "SlimDuct" for a better look ...The condensation linesnormaly runs out the back with the line set and control wire.They make built in condesation pumps for the units if you need..






Oh...Just up your alley Mark.... For kicks..Look into the new mini chillers...

Joe Brix

Mitsubishi

Has some interesting stuff

www.mrslim.com

large mulit-zoned inverter systems, but
the units start at 6 tons.

Companies like EMI have floor and in ceiling evaporators
that could be an option.

eric_2

Fujitsu

New line of Fujitsu (I cheated, I have the catalog)are boasting 21-Seer models in the new catalog. Try www.fujitsugeneral.com . Hope this helps.

Mi39ke

Split Action

Hey McGyver,

We've done tons of split systems. Used to only use Mitsubishi, but installed our first 21-SEER Fujitsu unit last week. They look to be pretty sweet. Inverter technology is what you are after. Some of the advanced manufacturers on the market have controls where you can read suction pressures or god knows what else on the hardwired screens. You can do hotels and have control and viewing capability of all zones on one screen. Gang them together, don't you know. Super efficient heating via the inverter technology is much like reset control with modulating output.

Mitsubishi is boasting 3.0 COP down to 17-degrees F on its latest unit. I think that this is the year they will fall behind in the market--at least in my market.

Michael Ward

PETE SKINNER

Check out LG mini splits - they have some that look like picture frames - nice units and eazy to install

www.lgusa.com

Rich Schulte

Mitsubishi

Mitsubishi has a new line of mini-splits that are north of 13 SEER and use R-410A. These units all use inverter driven compressors that can vary output to match load. They come in cooling only or heat pump versions. Mitsubishi has been in the US for many years and offers top quality products with outstanding support. Check out mehvac.com for info, however the new stuff may not be shown yet.

Maine Doug_36

I have

one in the shop and it does the main floor and the apartment downstairs via the stairwells. And it has no ducks so I guess it meets your duck-less requirements. It is very quiet so it must have no mice either. Also the auto speed feature where the fan slows down when the set temp is reached is nice. It is near the 14 foot ceiling so is less obvious then ones I have seen in offices etc. ;}

Cosmo_3

mini's

I have put a bunch in, usually it is because there is no other way to get around the post and beam construction for a client that renovates old barn buildings for his Inn. I like the Sanyo units a little more than the others because they have pretty good support after the sale, and parts are easy to get in my area. As far as quality I think that Sanyo, Fujitsu, Heil, etc are pretty much the same.

Biggest thing to remember is to size these units correctly, otherwise the dehumidify function does not work correctly and the compressor life will be limited.

I always use long radius fittings for the 3/4 PVC schd 40 condensate drains. This way if in 15 years if I can't blow a clog out w/ CO2 I can always run a small snake through. Also helps to install a piece of drywall, and the bracket when roughing in so all you have to do is hang the unit, and make the connections, and your outside in no time.

I would not install if there was another way because I know that the filters, which are difficult for your average homeowner to get to, will probably cause a few callbacks..... Unless the HO goes for the Maint Agreement.

My .02




Cosmo Valavanis

Harry C. Bellangy

Hi Guys. I have just completed a remodel project and selected SANYO split units for the AC. In a 1860 house with no room they are a great solution to get zoned AC and get rid of window units. This also makes the local historical commission very happy. My contractor did a great job and you see very little of anything from the outside of the house. I considered HV but with the limited closet space and stories of noise I decided to go with the split system. Also did an WM Ultra boiler for 3 zones of heat and the fourth being the HW tank. My contractor Plumber Joe did a great job of fitting the, as it is now know, 'the oil refinery in the kitchen' in to limited space. I will post some pictures of the project under a new topic.

Harry

Ted_13

just curious

Mark, I'm curious as to why your customer would not consider a central High Velocity system?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

While On The Subject

Do any of you know of ANY system (mini-split) or otherwise that could be used similar to this.

Serves two rooms--load only about 8,000 btu. Am having a TERRIBLE time finding an appropriately sized conventional system. Will be hanging above the drop ceiling in back-to-back closets.

Modul-Trol operated damper is for semi-crude "zoning". No intention to completely switch between the two rooms--just divert a bit more or less to one of the rooms depending on its' desired setpoint. One room will have master t-stat controlling the condensing unit, the other a slave t-stat operating the damper.

Big Ed

Ac

The heads of a mini split need to be in the room that needs to be cooled... I believe the smallest mini is a 9K ...They make a dual 9K and you could run them on low....

Seems you have a unque set up with a need for a small unit...I wounder if a small split refrigeration system could be fitted in..

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yea, it's a lousy situation. Have heard exactly that from mini-split mfgrs but I might make an "unapproved" installation--seems sort of hard to believe that they couldn't handle a couple feet of ducting.

It was genuinely impossible to get supply lines (let alone returns) to every room from a single location without concessions I was unwilling to make. Lowering the hall ceiling would have eliminated the transoms that light the windowless hall. Dormers prevented using eave space. There was one rather poor layout that got supplies into the rooms, but no returns and I'm an absolute stickler for returns in every bedroom for A/C in this area. Even a HI-V system wouldn't have worked out because a central location for the return and trunk was impossible.

jwade55_5

Have been using

units like these:

http://www.multiaqua.com/

They have a decent line of ductless-looking fan coils, and with the chilled water, small zones are handled well. Can run pex-al-pex, insulated to each fancoil, great dehumidification.

J

heatboy

Unless you need parts..........

..........they are all pretty good. I have installed Sanyo, Samsung, EMI, Mitsubishi, with Mitsubishi be my favorite, if I had to pick one.

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Supply House Rick

Mark ME

Mitsubishi 2006 R410 meet or exceed all seer ratings. Mark Hunt is a Diamond Dealer and I am sure he could help with any questions you may have...

Rick

Cosmo_3

Mixed up sushi

I haven't tried that brand yet, who do you buy them from hb?


Cosmo Valavanis

Cosmo_3

just to clarify

You made a distinction between high velocity and split system. They are one and the same. Split system is a term that refers to separate evaporator/fan and condenser units. The evaporator/fan unit is usually in an attic or basement if a ducted system, or hanging on the wall or ceiling for a ductless system. The typical condensing unit is outside.

The opposite of split system, would be a packaged unit. Some examples of package a/c units are window mounted a/c units, commercial roof top units, water source heat-pumps (geothermal), etc. These also can be ducted or ductless.

Hope that helps


Cosmo Valavanis

Dave Yates (PAH)

very cool - inverter

ME,

We use both Mitsubishi and Daiken Inverter multi-zone units. Way cool technology and works just like a mod-con - only with electricity instead of oil or gas.

We attended advanced Inverter training at Mitsubishi's headquarters and enjoyed the look into thwe future of AC & heat pump technology.

Check out the Citi-multi when you get a chance. Inverter technology with freon diverting capabilities to send hot or cold freon to units wanting to cool or heat within the same system at the same time. Great for those office buildings where "I'm too hot" and "I'm too cold" co-exist!

Standing next to an 8-ton compressor with access covers removed and straining to hear the compressor was a unique experience.

We just did a start-up in a loft apartment with a six-zone mini-split. It's an old candy factory (1800's) and an open floor plan. You could put about 2.5 bowling alley lanes back-to-back. There's a mod-con in there too powering up the steam-to-hot water (converted) rads. All the piping (copper) was run exposed because the owner wanted to keep the industrial look and feel. I'm rebuilding the antique employee's wall-hung pull-chain water closet that had remained in place for more than a century.

We're also a Mit Diamond Dealer.

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Cosmo_3

that's why

I love the wall

Thanks Dave, I will be looking into the inverter systems


Cosmo Valavanis

TGO_54

Check with Fujitsu

> Yea, it's a lousy situation. Have heard exactly

> that from mini-split mfgrs but I might make an

> "unapproved" installation--seems sort of hard to

> believe that they couldn't handle a couple feet

> of ducting.

>

> It was genuinely impossible to get

> supply lines (let alone returns) to every room

> from a single location without concessions I was

> unwilling to make. Lowering the hall ceiling

> would have eliminated the transoms that light the

> windowless hall. Dormers prevented using eave

> space. There was one rather poor layout that got

> supplies into the rooms, but no returns and I'm

> an absolute stickler for returns in every bedroom

> for A/C in this area. Even a HI-V system

> wouldn't have worked out because a central

> location for the return and trunk was impossible.





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TGO_54

Check with Fujitsu

at least one of their ceiling units allows for limited ducting.

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TGO_54

Check with Fujitsu

at least one of their ceiling units allows for limited ducting.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

cool

and hot too!

That 8-ton unit does 12-tons of heating/cooling by re-routing refrigerant before it returns to the compressor. We ended up having to put a meter on the 30K Inverter unit to verify the compressor was running - it was that quiet with the access cover removed!

Just put the MXZ30 tri-zone unit in our offices. If we ever slow up enough, we'll actually get-er-done.

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Maine doug

Inverters

Are inverters used to provide variable frequency AC for maintaining high torque with slow motor speeds?

JackFre

Fujitsu's cassettes

are available in 18, 24, 36 and 42kbtu sizes. They do allow remote ducting. Up to two 4" ducts can be run with a maximum run of 16' each. If a duct is run off one side that sides louvers are blocked with provided material and the duct receives the air. As cassettes are 4 way blows each duct would get 25% of capacity. These units have the lowest "insertion" height into the ceiling of any cassette and they are supplied with a built-in mini-pump to give 31.5" of lift. Available as heat pumps only (which with the inverters is all you should use anyway) I believe the Seer rating is 15. All specs are available at www.fujitsugeneral.com. The inverter models are absolutely amazing technology. Pay close attention to the min/max outputs in heat and cool, operating ranges, line set lengths (which have expanded greatly). All inverters models are energy star rated.

JackFre

Yes,

you are looking at a rectified circuit which will provide a very clean electrical signal (assuming a well grounded circuit). Essentially, with the inverters we enter the realm of true variable speed/modulating cooling. For the northern climates, residentially anyway, we don't need a great deal of temp reduction but we do need dehumidification...lots of it. With the inverters we will see much increased run times of the compressor at very low speeds giving quieter operation and excellent moisture removal. In the heat pump units you will get very good heating capability in the shoulder seasons. I'll be doing a seminar 5/31 in Bangor at Johnstome Supply and 6/1 at Johnstome, Portland on Fujitsu, if you care to attend

Dave Yates (PAH)

true variable speed

Unlike whole-house ducted systems, these mini-splits heat and/or cool only the space required for thermal comfort. And, there's no imbalance issues you'd expect to have when varying the blower speed in a ducted system. With rising energy costs, mini-splits that offer inverter technology will become the norm, rather than the exception.

Freon, or whatever moniker you want to label freon, is metered as well. Don't know about all brands, but the Mitsubishi modulates, instead of step-modulation, the refrigerant flow to match Btu production required.

You can program (or set) the remote to manage humidity while maintaining a set temperature.

It's a whole new ball game!

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JackFre

Also, Dave,

another thing that happens to mini-splits is that they do not have their own catagory for testing at ARI, so they have to meet the unitary requirements. What that means is the mini-splits are taxed with a 22% "duct loss" penalty as though they had duct work attached.

I know that HiV is a very popular method of cooling but I think they "stubbed their toes" on pushing for the space constrained approval so they do not have to meet the 13 seer requirements, especially when I can do up to 21 Seer with quieter and very compact equipment.

One of the great advantages of the inverter also is that with the longer run times the individual evaporators will project the air into adjoining spaces better, allowing them to give a more even and uniform temperature in those adjoining spaces. Modulation wins in all cases.

With the heat pumps the customer has the option of running the heating side for the shoulder seasons when the single stage boiler is grossly oversized. This equipment will give the consumer a suite of options to choose from to gain annual efficiencies. As you said, it's a whole new ball game!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks TGO and Jack. Will check them out. Size still a bit large, but the rest sounds good.

Dave Yates (PAH)

A senior moment

I seem to get more of them with each passing year(G).

I forgot to mention: with inverter units, you don't need electric strip heat 2nd stage or emergency heat. They perform like real champs during cold weather.

And another thing: They're perfect for those computer rooms where lo-ambient conditions must be met while running the A/C side.

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

PTAC's

In new contstruction, PTAC's have a price advantage over mini-splits, but are noisier.

Maine doug

Seminar

Jack, what time in Bangor? It is only 20 miles from me.

Patchogue Phil_29

are you sure?

> You made a distinction between high velocity and

> split system. They are one and the same. Split

> system is a term that refers to separate

> evaporator/fan and condenser units. The

> evaporator/fan unit is usually in an attic or

> basement if a ducted system, or hanging on the

> wall or ceiling for a ductless system. The

> typical condensing unit is outside.

>

> The

> opposite of split system, would be a packaged

> unit. Some examples of package a/c units are

> window mounted a/c units, commercial roof top

> units, water source heat-pumps (geothermal), etc.

> These also can be ducted or ductless.

>

> Hope

> that helps

>

> Cosmo Valavanis



Cosmo

You said "You made a distinction between high velocity and split system. They are one and the same. Split system is a term that refers to separate evaporator/fan and condenser units. The evaporator/fan unit is usually in an attic or basement if a ducted system, or hanging on the wall or ceiling for a ductless system. The typical condensing unit is outside.

The opposite of split system, would be a packaged unit. Some examples of package a/c units are window mounted a/c units, commercial roof top units, water source heat-pumps (geothermal), etc. These also can be ducted or ductless.
"

joel_19

minis

done them for 20 yes 20 years. mitsubishi rules the mini split universe best quality and best support for 20 years running. Daikin has been here before a nd bailed out so we'll see if they stay this time, very nice product though. LG picture units are noisier to my ear than a mitsu but are very distinctive in appearance which is a plus.Daikin has a unit you can duct and put a hot water coil on for mini hydro air which is VERY interesting . That's something Mitsu doesn't have. Mitsu also has Citi Multy which alows you to cool and heat off 1 condensor AT THE SAME TIME . there's a mind bender for you.

JackFre

Not sure yet...

I'll find out the first of the week. My recommendation is to give Johnstone Bangor a call and have them give all details. YOu can contact me at the above email or at 617 834-8751 cell. Hope you can make it!

Ron Schroeder

"Daikin has a unit you can duct and put a hot water coil on for mini hydro air which is VERY interesting . "

Hi Joel,

This is of interest to me. I sometimes have multi room situations that don't need very many BTU per room so they would not be well served by a mini-split per room. I couldnt find info on the ducted minisplit. Where could I find it?

Thanks,

Ron

joel_19

Daiken

Your local rep should have that info www.daikinac.com happy surfing