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Condensing oil boiler

Robert O'Connor_8
Robert O'Connor_8 Member Posts: 53
in THE MAIN WALL
I hope that oil boilers aren't gonna become like some gas boilers . Lots of proprietary parts etc. I do believe if oil is gonna survive as a heating fuel this is the direction we need to go.

Buyer beware!!

All the best

Robert


ME

Comments

  • GaryDidier
    GaryDidier Member Posts: 229
    Condensing oil boiler

    I just saw this at Webbs show at Barre, Vermont. Peerless condensing boiler, to be on shelves sometime in june. It works impressively with a measured eff of 93.8%. Check it out!

    Gary from Granville
  • Arthur
    Arthur Member Posts: 216
    Condensing Boiler

    Interesting that the label says 'Certified by Hoval'
    Hoval is an European firm, The company I worked for over 30yrs used to manufacture Hoval Boilers under licence here in NZ,
    They made a hotline boiler which was a Vertical down draft boiler with burner firing straight vertically downwards with the flue exiting at the bottom. Very compact for its output.
  • Miike
    Miike Member Posts: 1
    Condenisng Oil Boiler

    Hi,

    I've been reading your site in the UK. Here its law to use condensing units so 93-97% is expected now. Most gas units also should be modulating the flame according to the return water temp as a fuel efficiency measure. Oil is a lot harder to modulate in response to varaible heat load. The Hoval is a very nice looking beast but pricy for the domestic market.

    Cheers all

    Mike
  • Brad White_67
    Brad White_67 Member Posts: 16
    Mike-

    How many condensing oil brands of any stripe are available on your side of the pond? Curious.

    Hoval makes the Cleaver-Brooks "ClearFire" (as is marketed here in the US) by the way. Made in France and seems to be a good product so I guess that counts as a "thank you" and apology :)

    Thanks for checking in!
  • Richard_6
    Richard_6 Member Posts: 22
    condensing oil boilers

    With the high sulphur levels and low fuel oil quality that are accepted as standard in the US, anybody that manufacturers or installs an oil fired condensing boiler at this point has a death wish. The only reason an oil fired condensing appliance has been developed is because of the low suplhur standards in Western Europe. There is also less latent heat to even be gained in oil. High risk for brave souls. Be careful.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Ask and you shall receive...

    ... this German web-site has links to a number of EU suppliers of condensing oil boilers. For some reason, the VitolaPlus as well as the VitoPlus are absent, but you know where to find those.
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,399
    Peerless Pinnacle Condensing Oil Boiler

    Will this work with our high sulphur #2 oil? What's your thoughts...

    Rick
  • Unknown
    Unknown


    is it modulating as well?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,231
    the Monitor doesnt modulate

    the riello burner RBG2 is not available in the US so unless that burner on the pinnacle has changed dramtically since i last seen one i got to think it is not a modulating oil burner...

    well, let me go to Alan's site and see whats up with that ...
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454
    New Oil Pinnacle

    Called my local supply house today. He actually unveiled it at some meeting.

    85k btu only, but it does modulate. No pricing yet. Larger units are in the works, but the sales of this one will let them know if they should start selling the larger ones.

    Looks good. I'll get a Roth tank (only have gas now) and one of these and twin it into my primary loop along with my Dunkirk. Perhaps changeout the 90k Dunkirk for a T40 Munchie/Pinnacle to "keep it in the family".

    Whatever fuel is cheapest, I fire that boiler.

    Sometimes it is nice to "be in the business"

    Does anyone have an old T40 Munchie sitting around???
  • Robert O'Connor_8
    Robert O'Connor_8 Member Posts: 53
    Richard

    Personally, I am very glad to see Peerless bring this technology forward. I am sure they are gonna face some challenges. It's been 20 years since the JOT fiasco! However, they got the bugs worked out on that and its successor is a good durable boiler.

    There are oil marketers selling low sulfur #2. Low sulfur diesel is readily available in the marketplace.People are willing to pay more for euipment and the necessary fuel that they percieve as efficient.

    Your point about latent heat is really the most important comment in my view. Condensing oil gains only 5-7% eff. As you have shown us over the years proper selection of controls and emitters can offer even greater savings.However it all adds up.

    I'll be watching this very closely.It's a chicken egg situation. We need equipment that require low sulfue to get the dealers to provide it. The manufacturers are very much all aware of S02 the other byproducts of hi sulfer fuel - in any application!

    Richard it was great to meet you in Augusta last month and discuss this very topic!

    All the best,

    Robert

    ME
  • Arthur
    Arthur Member Posts: 216
    Condensing boilers.

    Condensing Boilers seem to be the way of the future, However Perhaps after over 40 yrs in the industry I wonder whether the client actually wins in the end,
    First he pays more for this modern technogy then he find that it cost more to service each year (more sophisticated test equipment), Then on top of that he finds that every few years the computer which controls all this fancy machine stuffs up and he is faced with a cost of a new circuit board,
    I wonder if he added up his cost over say 10 yrs whether he was any better off than if he was with the old boiler,
    Over here I finding Lennox furnaces need either a induced fan or circuit board every 4-5 yrs. The cost at several hundred dollars a pop must be a negative to the savings on running costs.
    Once I could maintain my own vehicle now the money on the fuel I save goes to the garage in servicing.
  • Mike McDonnell
    Mike McDonnell Member Posts: 5
    Condensing Oil Boiler

    I thought I would post the information available from The Peerless website on the Pinnacle Oil. peerlessboilers.com.
    It is not a modulating burner just a standard Beckett AFG.
  • Kevin__Flynn
    Kevin__Flynn Member Posts: 74
    Pinnacle

    According to the Hoval Website (the maker of the Pinnacle)this boiler does not achieve that 93% efficiency until the return temp is at or below 86 degrees F. This by the way, is calculated at 12.6% O2 with a blue flame burner that uses flue gas recirc. I have yet to find many service techs or Beckett for that matter that are comfortable at leaving an AFG dialed in at any higher than 11.6% CO2. This of course means that the dewpoint will be even lower than 86 degrees F.

    So the question becomes, does it make sense to spend the extra money on product and fuel not to mention risk for a gain of only 2% over lets say a Viessmann Vitola 200? Especially when you realize that these return temps are not realistic unless there is radiant, snow-melt, or water source heat pumps. Hydro-air or even baseboard will be hard as well as costly to design at temps that low.

    I think eventually it will make sense, I'm just not sure that the time is now.


    Kevin Flynn

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • GaryDidier
    GaryDidier Member Posts: 229
    PB

    The demo unit I saw does not modulate but has outdoor reset and the ability to take low water return temps. This would create a system that would be far more efficient overall than existing oil systems. Expected savings are from 20-40%.
    I don't know what the effects of sulphur will be on the system but it is warranteed for 12 years.


    Gary from Granville
  • Rob_34
    Rob_34 Member Posts: 21
    Monitor Products oil condensing Boiler

    Check this page out.

    http://mzboiler.com/products/fcx/index.html
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    No longer just your ordinary Scotch Marine boiler

    I have looked into the Cleaver-Brooks, it looks just like the one you picture (except for sizes, I guess). If the Hoval innards are the same, meaning a stainless steel fire tube with fire-side aluminum fins pressed in, then I would not worry one bit about acid corrosion, these two metals hold up quite all right to acids and sulphuric acid. Plus, the thing is well suited to take on heat expansion and thermal shock.

    The burner I saw had the same half dome shape the Viessman uses. But it was gas, you're talking oil. Nevertheless, I liked the upside down configuration and the fact you don't need to bend down to look at it.

    The one I looked at, like the label in your picture, said Swiss origin, which might explain the cost, but, quality comes free. You'll keep this boiler for a long time.

    It's great Peerless is bringing them in. I hope they have a steam version too.
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    Hoval

    makes steam boilers that can reach 94.5% efficiency using economizers. At present they only make larger industrial types but there's no reason smaller ones wouldn't work.

    Cmon Burnham, Peerless, Dunkirk, Smith, Weil-McLain and others- high-efficiency steamers are doable. If they can produce them in England and Canada (Gasmaster) why can't you?

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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,568


    The total # of steam boilers sold each year is a very small % of the total boilers sold which in itself is a very small % of the total central heating units sold,except for isolated pockets it's 90% warm air. I don't think the R&D can be recouped over such a small # of units sold

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  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Panurge's sheep

    The sense I get from US residential boiler manufacturers - and this is from attending boiler shows and looking at the evolution of the products - is that they are mostly writing off the whole steam sector and going with a replace-only, no innovation strategy. The idea being that this is a moribund market.

    Steam is definitely a small market. A niche market. And compared to hot air, so is hot water. So the argument goes like this: yeah hot water is small but it has definite advantages that make it worthwhile. Well, I buy that argument, and in the same breath I should think we can say: yeah steam is small but it too has definite advantages that make it that much more worthwhile.

    The US is not exactly the forefront of hot water boiler designs. For that, we only need to look at Europe. Their advantage comes from the fact that hydronic heat is particularly well suited for the mild and smooth climate prevalent over there. This itself is a huge factor, but add to it the giant bubble boiler market the crack up of the former Soviet block caused, and you've got yourself a giant European heating boom that started in the nineties. This tidal wave came of course with a surge in funding for research and development, and more marketing campaign, all doting on hot water and none on residential steam. Anything beyond heavy industrial steam is unknown to Europeans.

    We watch the market, we pick up some cues and we think: hmmm, there must be something to water that steam doesn't have... and yet...

    North America, in the Midwest from the Rockies on to the East Coast, and excepting the hot South, is the prime climate for steam heat. The great many residential, commercial and district applications show this. So far, this market has been the exclusive domain of American boiler manufacturers - their own private hunting ground - with no competition from the Buderus, Viessman et al. I find it unbelievable that it can't be worthwhile catering to this secluded market.

    Europeans are selling easily into our hot water market, that's fully to be expected. While I don't think we can sell easily into the European hot water market. The simple opposite is true of steam. Neat, no? I would work hard at maintaining an easy competitive edge.

    In other words, demolishing our already developed steam advantage will only benefit foreign importers of hot water boilers. I think this pattern is plain to see.

    Other shake up

    The next big market is Asia. They have the ideal climate for combined AC heat pump application and they are growing. Those are the similar applications we have in our South and competition is already hot. What do you think?


    The automobile market is a global one, and yet driving a pick-up truck in Europe is so foreign a concept people would think you had just landed in a UFO (you get the same look when talking about steam heat). What's interesting is that at no time neither Ford, Dodge, GM ever decide to write off the US truck market, and in response, the truck lines are the best source of profit for them. On top of that, these three companies remain the leaders of truck design with other countries copying us. A competitive edge upheld.

    What's the jingle? Built Steam Tough?

    The future of the boiler bubble...

    I kind of think it has come to an end. Most of what needed to be rebuilt in a rash in eastern Europe is probably done by now. This means boiler demand should level off. Bad news. But wait, fruitful lobbying has called for the EU boiler police to go around wrecking boilers. I think such a deadline is coming up this year in Germany by when everyone will have had to buy a brand new boiler or else hang by the neck - At least, to me, that's what seemed to be the message. There are unfunded mandates on reflectorized insulation for heat pipes and attic insulation... and the speed at which the steam shovel will come over to demolish your non compliant home :(

    I've been reading scary German construction magazines. Is there really such new EU codes? Anyways, these are just some heating thoughts of mine, I don't mean them in any way for me to be telling anyone else what to do. Just ideas, of which I have a lot, and I hope these were pertinent to this thread.

    CH
  • Scott Gregg
    Scott Gregg Member Posts: 187
    A couple other things to consider

    A couple other things that should make this a great boiler:

    1. The Standard Beckett AFG burner is something everyone is familiar with and parts readily available.

    2. The double hinged burner plate that allows the burner to swing out the way (Either way) for complete access to the chamber for cleaning. (Very nice!)

    3. All stainless steel internal components should make for a long life cycle.

    4. Insulated burner shroud to clean up the appearance and cut down on noise. (This is supposed to be one of the quietest oil boilers available.)

    5. Multiple Venting options. This is a big one! How many times has a job been lost to electricity because of venting? This thing can vent horizontally or vertically with a concentric vent that is 0 clearance. This alone will make a lot of problems go away.

    6. It’s not a low-mass boiler. The boiler holds about 13 gallons of water. It is not subject to high head loss like the low-mass boilers so you don’t have to use a high-head circulator. Also by not being a low-mass boiler it should be a lot more forgiving of piping arrangements. There is no minimum flow requirement so there should be none of the low flow issues that can plague the low-mass crowd. I know it’s not a big deal but it is a factor.

    7. Multiple control options give the ability to do outdoor reset, staging of multiple boilers, etc.

    With the higher price it certainly won’t be for every job, but those who want the one of the most efficient oil boilers on the market it will be a great choice. As oil keeps going higher it will start to make even more sense.

    I hear there are a dozen or so out there that have been beta tested in homes for better than a year with great results. It will be fun to see what a few years and a few thousand on the street teach us.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Is it that extreme?

    I was under the impression that most Germans don't change their heating systems that often. Boilers do have to meet certain efficiency standards, you have to allow a chimney sweep in to review them, etc. but to characterize a this process country-wide replacement program for boilers is unlikely to be true.

    That said, there is a very interesting article on the front cover of the WSJ that you may entertain you. It describes the extreme energy subsidies a number of eastern block nations have enjoyed under the patronage of the Russians in the past and how the end of said subsidies is causing homeowners and industry alike to modernize and reduce their demand.

    Judging from the many places in the former Eastern block that Viessmann has put down roots, my guess is that the boiler manufacturers will treat "old Europe" as a mature market with very little growth while focusing their main attentions on the rapidly industrializing/modernizing eastern EU nations and China. India doesn't need much in terms of heating... :-P

    As I see it, the US market plays second fiddle to the rest of the world in the hydronics field because 93% of the systems installed here use air. That only leaves ~8MM households to supply, that's the Netherlands or something like that, while covering a territory the size of the EU. An potentially attractive market, for sure, but I wouldn't expect manufacturers to put their attentions here first.
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Aufgepasst

    Here is what I am reading from a special edition of a heating news magazine called Heizungs-Ratgeber. Succinctly, any existing building will have until December 31, 2006 to 1) have a mandated amount of insulation in the attic 2) have the pipes in the basement covered in fiberglass and silverpaper wrapper, and 3) have boilers installed before 1978 removed by the deadline, if the burner has been newly replaced, you get a two year extension before the scrappers come.

    They show a (Viessmann, he he) picture of one such forced removal of an offending boiler.

    To prove you are cool, every home will need to get an energy certificate that costs, according to one company, a mere 500 to 600 dollars (gasp), not including repairs. The certification has to be passed every 10 years. Like you say there are already many forcible inspections related to home heating, what's one more?

    With such measures, life becomes a trial.

    Here is the link to the magazine (I put it twice, once as a paste, once as a hyperlink)

    http://www.heizungsratgeber.de/

    magazine

    Here are links to the legal code with detailed numbers about windows and infiltration and temperature, and two other links that talk about the new EnEV certificate. All in German, but translatable.

    http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/enev/index.html

    Legal

    http://www.enev-online.de/

    EnEV

    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.rewirpower.de/home/energie/energie/energiepass.html&prev=/search?q=energiepass&hl=en&lr=

    Certification

    Lastly, I have been curious about where Hoval is from, it seems many of us have found different origins. It turns out this company is from the principality of Liechtenstein, just like Hilti is. The anagram stands for Heating Ospelt (the founder in 1897) Vaduz (the town) Liechtenstein. Smart people, the principality is the Hawaii of tax havens.


    http://www.hoval.com/inhaltsmall.htm?sap-params=Z2V0cGFnZT1ISVNUT1JZJnN1YmlkPUdFU0NISUNIVEUmbmF2aWQ9VUVCRVJVTlM=

    hoval Liechtenstein

    There, enough German for tonight, it's time to wash it down with a beer.
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Too much beer already

    I'm messing this up, my hyperlinks are not working and I accidentally added a whole bunch of carrots to my post. Sorry.
  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995
    Thats OK

    carrots are good for your eyes and may help you next time.

    Good post anyway
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Now my eyes hurt then

    That figures, I was able to get rid of the carrots but I still don't get to see my hyperlinks in blue.
  • MARK_73
    MARK_73 Member Posts: 1
    FCX CONDENSING BOILERS UNDER THE MONITOR NAME

    ANY COMMENTS ON THE PROFORMENCE OF THIS BOILER
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,556


    We were just looking into this unit. Don't know much about them yet and haven't seen one in action, but I believe they will have a live fired one at NAOHSM if you are attending.
  • John_108
    John_108 Member Posts: 21
    FCX Monitor Boiler

    We are also looking into this boiler. I talked to the factory rep the other day. He said they only carry one size - 76,000 btu input. From what I've seen looks good but would love to see one operate.
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    FCX output, not input

    is 76,100 BTUH. Still it is said to be 95% "application efficiency". That seems a little bold....

    The folks at Brookhaven National Labs used one in a test house for their "condensing boiler with reset and fin-tube study". No recent updates on current performance.
  • Mark_60
    Mark_60 Member Posts: 13
    Warranty

    I heard the warranty on this boiler is only 12 years. Nice technology and it is great to see higher efficiencies. If you have to change the boiler every 12 years to save 7% per year (average 2,000 per year fuel bill- 7% = $140.00 x 12= 1,680 savings in 12 years) on your fuel bill is it really worth it?
  • eric_2
    eric_2 Member Posts: 148
    fcx boiler

    Just had an opportunity to see the FCX boiler yesterday. Unfortunately I didn't get to see a live fire. 81,250 input, 76,000 output. They claim 95% efficency on 120 return temp, 20 dergree delta T. Had one of my contractors here to give it an honest assesment and the feedback was positive. I'm looking forward to having a technical training on this in the near future.
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