Cheaped out again

RonWHC

Bitter because I didn't call you back? Not my fault that Nextel still sucks. Will some baseball tickets cure your feel bads? Or, are you above being bribed?

Mason

I hate when contractors do this

I absolutely hate it when guys undersize systems. There are good heat loss programs available everywhere and some guys just can't get it. NOt only can't they get it, but they are giving two of my passions (geothermal and radiant) a black eye. This other guy went in and installed a 5ton geo to drive a 5200 sq ft home. 3000 sq ft of which is radiant. Now that it is done with tubing on 18" cneters and anything else he could do to cheap the house won't get over 60` in the winter( I guess that is what you get when you install a machine capable of 54000btu in a situation that has a 55000+ load from radiant alone).

Sorry, had to rant some today.....

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.....

OK I feel better.

Mason


Oh yeah, of course the homeowner has noe turned to us....go figure.

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Al Letellier_9

bad work

Just think of the advertising opportunity for you regarding this incident: They screw it up, we fix it....I think we're considered bigger hero after we fix a bad one thatn when we do it right ourselves the first time...maybe you've found a new niche for your business.

Constantin

Sorry to hear about your troubles...

...sounds like the homeowner is going to have to pay for quality after all. It's just too bad that they didn't pick you from the beginning to get the system right!

... so how are you going to tackle it?

IIRC, the heat loss in the radiant-heated section (18BTU/(sq ft x hr) exceeds the amount of heat that can be squeezed out of tubing on 18" centers... unless it is embedded in concrete. Is there a AC system into which you can retrofit a hydrocoil as a 2nd stage heat?

Also, a small condensing, modulating boiler might make for a great 2nd stage heating system to supplement the geothermal on the coldest of days.

Steve Ebels_3

Nice David

Here's your chance to prove to at least one customer that you know your stuff like I know you do.

I'm assuming that the radiant is a poured application, not underfloor? Basement and garage maybe? And the main floor is ducted, running off the geo also? Good Grief! Where does a guy start when "fixing" a mess like this? Did you have a chance to quote the job originally? The other guy was cheaper?

Watch yourself on the fix. Everytime I've gotten into situations like this, it's always been more expensive to repair/correct than to do it right the first time.

Let's see...... I'm thinking some supplementary designer type panel rads. Maybe a two stage stat that kicks on the geo heating first and then calls on the boiler/rad system. Or a coil in the duct like Constantin suggested. That is provided the duct serves all the affected areas.

Obviously, I haven't a clue about what the job entails........just running my mouth. Call me tomorrow morning, I'd like to hear all the gory details.

Tom_35

Seems to happen all the time---

Why is it that a cut-throat contractor can do these type of jobs and then walk away from them when they don't work? A reputable contractor is "too high" and doesn't get the job. If the reputable guy does happen to get it and there is a problem, they take it on the chin and make it right for the customer.

When the good guy starts to see what is involved in making the system correct, the customer can't believe the cost and sometimes tends to think the 2nd guy is ripping him off. Why don't they go after the 1st guy and sue them for making the job right?

We don't have a lot of radiant systems in Arkansas, but most that we have seen have been installed by contractors that don't have a clue what they're doing. Several years ago a "new products home" was built by the local homebuilders and had one of the Lennox Complete Heat systems with 600-700' of radiant heating. The homeowner went through 2 winters of no heat from the radiant and finally the homebuilders association called our company to take a look at the job. The piping was a total wreck, tubing was full of air with no way for it to get out, and the control wiring wouldn't let the pumps run. We straightened everything out, the system worked, and the homebuilders thought the charges were too much.

Another job had a Tekmar variable speed injection control that had wiring run to it, but no control wiring run out of it. Yet these guys still get jobs.

Something is wrong here.

Tom Atchley

Mark Hunt

Call me an optimist but


I REALLY think that "the day of the schmucko" is coming to an end. I am NOT saying that they will disappear completely, but their numbers are dropping.

People are getting educated before making purchases and the low baller can't comprehend this.

Better days are coming! I can feel it.

Mark H

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Mitch_4

was it this guy?

Mason

wow

Hey where can I get one of those signs. What do ya think SE, that would look good in the side of the Sprinter eh? Maybe even right over the Viessmann logo......

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Steve Ebels_3

I'd have to get permission

From Ken. (G)

Have to say I REALLY enjoyed hearing the details RE the installing contractor when you called this AM. The ironies of that job are TOOOOO good.

If you have time and the inclination, you really should post some of the details regarding this can of worms on the Wall here for all to enjoy.

Here's one tidbit of info for all of you wondering what's going on. Dave lost this job by $3,000 last year. The HO went with the low price and got exactly what he bought.

Troy_3

Incompetence

I was bidding on a 4000sq.ft. snow melt job. I designed it with 600MBH. The next guy claimed it only needs 100MBH. The third bidder said he just pumps 36 deg. water from a retention pond through the slab and rarely requires a boiler. This is in Rochester NY. We get cold and snow. Where do these dreamers come from. The homeowner is so confused he gave up. He came to the conclusion that snowmelt is still experimental. He thinks the technology is just not there yet. He didn't care that I gave him 15 names of working jobs.

Paul Pollets

As Pogo said...

"We have met the enemy, and he is us..."

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Matt_21

mark

i have to disagree with you. there will always be someone out there looking for the lowest price and someone willing to give it to them. i think a large problem in new construction is the general contractor. when building new homes the gc is only looking for the cheapest price. i've found if there is a problem when the new homeowner moves in, they complain for a while, the gc puts them off, eventually tries to fix the problem, if unsuccessful will keep avoiding the homeowner until they stop calling. eventually the homeowner gets tired of chasing the gc and acccepts what they got. it seems homeowners will put up with a room that never warms up but if their dishwasher doesn't work, they will go to the ends of the earth to get it fixed.

Mark Hunt

GC's


I agree with that. But nore and more I am seeing people telling the GC what THEY want, not the other way around.

New construction of production homes will always be down and dirty. Low end building and low end mechanicals are here to stay.

When customers are more involved, they end up with a much better product.

Mark H

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Mitch_4

two of my favorites is..

"people who design foolproof systems underestimate the ingenuity of fools.." -anonymous

"There are two things in the universe
that are truly abundant: Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Frank Zappa

Steve Ebels_3

Pogo

I always loved that line. So true in many ways

Ken_8

Hey Shark-bait,

permission granted (;-o)

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Ragu

Good Topic

This one affects us all, and there are some very good comments posted here. Two thoughts came to me:
1) Anyone who is trying to stay current with new trends in heating technology (and who is also conscientious) HAS to be aware that this is not baby stuff. You've got to have something on the ball to be good at this work.
2) Anyone who is a consistent lowballer CANNOT POSSIBLY do a quality job that they can stand behind. Good heating performance and good fuel economy come from using good equipment installed with a good level of skill. "Good" has to be paid for. There's no way around it.

RonWHC

$3,000. seems to be

the magic number. Lost a 28-16 Smith steamer to a local plumber by that amount. The owner gave him my proposal. He ordered exactly all the controls & burner listed on my piece.

The job appears to be a disaster in progress. He didn't budget for a rigger to remove the old boiler & set the new one in the boiler room. His lead man couldn't understand why the wholesaler left the sections setting in the alley, rather than put them in the room. He even asked the building Super to help him move them. Didn't happen.

They are about to disassemble the boiler for the 3rd time to replace the graphite seals. Can't get it to stop leaking. Wonder if they are ever going to read the erecting instructions? If so, they might notice those 2 little words - "Torque Wrench." They might even notice the order in which the draw rods are to be torqued.

I'd like to laugh, but the management company is one of my best customers. The bright side is - I'll bet we get no flack when we raise rates this fall. Always looking for the silver lining.

Mike Reavis_2

Ron, \"Mr. Sunshine\" Wheeler I presume.

Yeah right, looking for a silver lining are you?

Mike