Can't clean a gas boiler ??

rich pickering

Mark, who approves you to be authorized to modify a system,NCI? Not being picky, just curious. Lawyers love this.

ScottMP

Thats what he told her.

I went to a job yesterday for a boiler replacement. lady says another company sent over a guy to check her power vented boiler. There was soot all over the side of the house.

He told her the boiler sooted up and she needed a new one. He told her you can't clean them once they get sooted up .


???????????????????????

I checked the system. He had unpluged the wires to the gas valve and shut off the gas. I agree on that. I checked the wires and nothing is melted, no sign of flame rollout. There is a flame roll out switch. No soot other than whats outside. No damage to wires or controls.


The draft inducer screams alittle on start up, so that probable what the problem was. That and the fact there is a dryer and HWH along with the boiler in a tight small basement.

This guy told her 9,000.00 for a new boiler.

I told her we would clean the boiler, install a new fan assmbly and install a fan in a can.

Can't clean a boiler ??? Sounds like a commision sale to me huh ?

Scott

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bigugh_4

Ya know?

Over the years doing mostly domestic plumbing and heating service and repair, I now wonder if I should have been more on the replacement trip, rather than on the repair it trip. I'd perhaps made more money. But I sleep very well, knowing that I cared enough to NOT for the $$$ but that the customer got what he wanted. I made some mistakes, but they were honest and I tried tried rectify them when I found out. We live in a replace it sociaty. most folks today, do not consider 'fixing it' Not to mention the skill it takes to do the job. Did the previous chap really even consider cleaning the boiler? or if so did he reject the idea for the technical reason he did not know how? Blanket 'gouging' statements have to be softened by a little consideration of empathy now and again. Otherwise the Lawyers are the only ones who will "Make a killing' in this life.

Leo

Being an oil guy and picking up on gas here and a few classes at Timmie's I wonder if the guy really didn't know how to clean one. It seems a lot of so called gas guys think gas units are plug and play. Scary, yes and very sad.

Leo

Unknown

This happens more times than

I would like to talk about. It is pure laziness and the desire to make money on an new install that drives this attitude.

I have in the past few years run into contractors who tell customers that Powerpile Systems are dangerous and should be removed and a new furnace or boiler installed. This is because they do not know how to troubleshoot them so they sell them a new system instead.

Bildo

similar situation

I went to a house with a similar situation. There were two gas boilers and 2 gas water heaters in a room barely big enough to even fit everything. No make up air. Finished basement. One of the boilers was rolling out and burning the labels and melting the wires. Two people before me went in and just replaced the rollout switch. Thank god no one jumped it out the house would have burnt down. THe first floor boiler had the burner tubes in sideways. THe flue pipes on the water heaters were just floating with no screws in it and under sized. What a mess.

Joe Grosso

Boiler

I agree with Leo. He probably had no idea how to go about servicing it.

[Deleted User]

Funny thing, them utility companies...

Had a blue collar family call me the other day. Lady runs a home day care center for about 5 kids. Well organized, real safe for the kids. Anyway, the HO calls their local utility company (Xcel Energy) because she has a "maintenance agreement" with them. She thought it covered ALL appliances. They only covered her washer, dryer and refrigerator. Boiler coverage is available at an additional cost, but that's not how it was presented to her. Anyway, the repair specialist shows up and condemns (rightfully so, partially) her boiler, disables it and tells her she needs a new one.

The 40 year old boiler is putting out over 4,000 PPM CO in the flue. Good draft, but nonetheless poor operation.

The woman is destitute, can't afford a new boiler right away, thought it would be covered by their warranty that she's been paying extra on, and there was a major cold front coming in the next day.

I respond immediately. Got two of my best on the job and had them pull and clean the burners, etc, re-assemble and adjust as clean as they could (400 PPM). Still maintaining good draft, and no possibility of a negative pressure condition that would cause back drafting, left her turned on.

I show the next morning and install a barometric damper, eliminating the fixed relief/draft diverter hood and VIOLA, CO drops to 20 PPM. I tell them to start saving their money for an eventual replacement, because the old gal still ain't none too efficient, but we at least didn't have to replace it...

As for the utility guy, he probably doesn't have the knowledge to diagnose and correct the old beasts, but he shouldn't condemn it so quickly, especialy under these conditions. They could at least offer to pay for a replacement and add it to their monthly utility bill (with INTEREST of course).

Tough finding good help. We're truly blessed.

ME

joel_19

?

mark why did it drop the co switching to a barametric / are you saying the draft was to high and that lowered the draw through the burners ? And aren't you concerned that you could be liable for removing the factory draft hood ? i'd like to help people like that too but am scared about being screwed for life if it ends up going bad .

joel_19

?

mark why did it drop the co switching to a barametric / are you saying the draft was to high and that lowered the draw through the burners ? And aren't you concerned that you could be liable for removing the factory draft hood ? i'd like to help people like that too but am scared about being screwed for life if it ends up going bad .

[Deleted User]

ZERO draft...

was the major issue here. Not enough to cause major spillage at the combustion tray, but enough to mess up the numbers. If you take the NCI course, you are authorized in the proper application and use of barometric dampers.

I want to take a LARGE stand here, and I know I'm going to raise some hackles, but so be it.

The P.O.C. fixed draft hoods that come on most atmospheric appliances kill more people than do properly applied, properly installed and adjusted barometric dampers, AND the fuel efficiency is typically INCREASED for the converted appliances. Here's where the hackles get raised.

The manufacturer is required to test their appliances under some of the simplest, least potentially relative operating conditions to get their certifications. Theoretically, the conditions under which they are being certified exists throughout the range of their potential application. That's NOT the real world. The real world has draft potentials that vary from ZERO to -.10" WC, NOT the ideal -.02 to.04 they see in their laboratories.

But it doesn't matter, because they got their certification. Funny thing is, if they eliminated that piece of work draft diverter from their design, and replaced it with a simple barometric, with appropriate blocked flue spill switches, the efficiency would go up, and less people would die from carbon monoxide poisoning...

As far as their standing behind you for major field modifications, not on your life. Hot potatoe in the legal department. Non approved field modifications in the field voids their warranty, and you assume all libility as it pertains to the appliance. But guess what. If you didn't modify the appliance and people die from CO poisoning, I don't think you'll find them standing by your side in court. They'll be watching their own hieny, making sure it's covered.

I have no issues from performing field modifications that are approved, and proven methods of "fixing" situations in the field. I sleep well at night knowing I did the right thing.

I just don't understand why these manufacturers don't get it.

Maybe, some day when some rich senator looses a family member to CO poisoning, we'll get some resolve. Until then, I have to do what's right for my consumer.

ME

[Deleted User]

Yes...

NCI. THey have UL blanket approval for the application of barometric dampers on atmospheric gas fired appliances.

Students who have succesfully passed their course are authorized to make field modifications in order to bring appliances into complaince as it pertains to CO production.

I seriously doubt that NCI would stand next to you if you were involved in a legal battle over loss of life or health in a CO case, but they probably would testify on your behalf in regards to the proper application of the devices.

And obviously, they are not authorized to authorize a field modification for anyones appliances. Strictly the application of a barometric, and elimination of their P.o.C. relief vent.

Did you kow, that if you re-orifice an appliance for use at a different altitude that you just bought the bag of liability on most gas fired appliances? That is considered a non factory authrized modification, voiding any warranty and handing the bag of future liability over to you, the repair person. But stop and think about it, if you knowingly allowed the misapplication of a sealevel appliance in a higher altitude without changing the orifices, and the appliance generated enough CO to kill or maim, you're standing there holding the bag of liability any way.

As long as I'm going to be holding this bag, I want control over how well it holds water, and how much it weighs and what type of liability I have.

Here's another for instance that very few people realize.
If you install a Buderus G series oil fired boiler, and you install a gas fired burner on it, you've done so without the manufactureres blessings and authorization.

They have tested their appliances with numerous gas fired burners, and they did well, but they've NEVER authorized the use of gas burners on their oil rated applainces. At least they hadn't as of a few years ago. Hopefully that has changed.

It's an EXPENSIVE process to run an appliance through the gauntlet just to allow the use of a natural gas burner on an oil rated piece of equipment.

Who do you suppose is holding the bag of liability in these cases? I know we've got a BUNCH of them out there. Hence the need for initial testing and proper set up, and the criticality of regular maintenance and testing. It takes a spider about 1 hour to mess things up royally...

Boilers don't kill people, SPIDERS do...

I heard the other day, that regardless of where you are on the face of this fine planet, there IS a spider within 2 feet of you. In the same conversation, they stated that people inhale about three spiders per year while they are snoring in their sleep...

GULP...:-)

ME

rich pickering

Liability

The UL rating is interesting. Hate to fight it in court though.It seems that the more you know, the bigger the bag you hold.
I agree,liability is becoming a serious issue.

I question the orifice issue. I know Carrier specs a different orifice depending on altitude,heating value of the gas, and the specific gravity of the gas, and for some reason wether it is Canada or the U.S. They also give a manifold pressure for each combination.

What, you didn't check the specific gravity of the gas being used? Sorry, the liability is all yours.

[Deleted User]

Key word...

MOST applainces. Once the appliance leaves the manufacturers facilites, they have no control over what's being done to the appliance, and in MOST cases, they have an out in their warranty for unauthorized field modifications.

I know of one boiler manufacturer who is having "issues", that I have proven beyond a DOUBT that a barometric damper instead of their bell shaped piece of crap, would ELIMINATE the problems, and they won't buy off on it because their appliance is not certified with that particular draft regulator on it...

"It (the bell) worked OK on our laboratory bench set up..."

Welcome to the real world!

You are correct tha SOME manufacturers (the smart ones) allow field modifications to orifice sizing, but their stance is that it is still out of their control. For example, if the manufacturer assumes a certain caloric value to the gas and the actual btu content of the gas is different, and the installing contractor is aware of this, and enlarges the orifices to compensate, the factory liability is eliminated because the contractor took it upon himself to compensate for the different caloric value and made adjustemnts outside of the recommended factory specifications, right wrong or indifferent. A common occurence here in Colorado.

"tis a litiguous society in which we live..."

ME

Plumdog_2

My, My, My, said the spider to the fly....

This is most interesting to me. Every single LP fueled appliance that I have cleaned soot out of and re-orificed was equipped for sea level use. And there are lots more. How about Propane boiler in crawl space (pit) with no combustion air and the flames burnt the wires off the controls until it quit? Or same scenario with water up over the burners but the pilot still on? Scary hoo boy.
Gas suppliers seldom Red Tag this stuff; and I know they have seen it. There are lots of questions about high altitude combustion that are unanswered or treated with mythological solutions or old wives tales. And to think you might be liable for making something right.