RGA - my new title!

Dan Foley

I agree, Alan. I often wonder why it is that we agree to perform free warranty service for the manufacturers. If we are lucky, we may even get credit for the part! I share your frustration. -DF

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=305&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

RGA - my new title!

Returned Goods Administrator. I suppose larger companies can dedicate a job position to this, but I'm small and I'm the one that goes out when a newly installed boiler, pump or fixture doesn't work.

Lately it's been blowers, leaky indirects, outdoor sensors, and circulators. And all you guys know what's involved: the first trip to find out what's wrong, the trip to the wholesaler to get the part and then the second trip to the job to fix the thing; and then the wholesaler charges you for the part until he gets the returned item with serial number of the boiler, date of installation, etc. The worst part is the understood frustration of the homeowner.

And you might get reimbursed if you wait long enough.

Thanks for letting me vent.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

Hurry up...

and wait...

I've been pretty lucky for the most part. I've been paid for everything I've billed. Sometimes requires a little heated discussions, but nonetheless, we get paid. Sometimes, it's not worth it, and the good will of salvaging a good custoemr makes it worth it, but I understand your frustrations.

Do other industries not pay for warranty labor? Most "allowances" won't even begin to cover direct costs.

What say ye manufacturers? (the silence will be DEAFENING)

ME

TGO_54

Chirp Chirp Chirp



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Lets see.......

2 leaking oil fired boilers on initial install last week . They will give us some labor money for those .

A loud as hell circ yesterday . The impeller or the shaft was out of true . Probabaly 1.5 hours travel and fixin' time . Not sure about any labor allowance on that one .

Had an IFC check break off and go into the system piping a few weeks ago .

Had an air eliminator spurting out water all over a customers basement on a few month old install .

And I can't forget the missing parts for a few knockdown oil burners , missing burner studs or nuts for various boilers , or my favorite - the leaking nipple that goes into the painted threads of a circ flange .

Seems to me new parts are breaking down much more often than used to be . I hope these manufacturers have a very liberal labor reimbursement policy .

TGO_54

Chirp Chirp Chirp

I hear crickets

Nothing else

Anyone suprised?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Eugene Silberstein 3

Hey Tom!

What are you doing on the Wall, when you were supposed to at the Beckett class with us?

What gives?

Plumdog_2

Crappy stuff loses money

all over the place. If you get one of these wholesalers to pay labor charges; then they wait till your next order and put you on a different price level until they make back their money. I got one place charging twice over retail rates. Screw them.

will smith_4

Quality is down, price is up

So much of the manufacturing base here has disappeared, with the usual CEO bantor that labor prices are cheaper overseas (you know, where the supervisors carry semi-automatic weapons). Has anybody seen a drop in any motor price? Control price? Not that I have seen. Not that they are in the hydronic industry, but Reznor (flee them like the plague if you can) puts OEM draft inducer motors in their unit heaters (try to get a generic one to fit without getting the fits), made in Mexico, runs you 1/5-1/4 the cost of a new unit altogether, lasts a year or so.I wish I had gone to CEO school. Play golf and force layoffs.

Constantin

Alan,

I am sorry to hear that you're spending more time than you ought to doing admin/warranty work. Posts like yours remind me that remote diagnostics is a common feature in the world of production equipment (and that was 5 years ago), and it makes me wonder why no one has managed to bring the same functionality to the masses.

You don't even need a high-end TCP/IP-based solution... Fax modems cost almost nothing and could be programmed to send the fax to you or the factory with the latest parameters/faults, etc. to help you figure out what went wrong. The fax may save you a trip and would provide the manufacturer with a great differentiator from the competition.

TGO_54

Hey Eugene,

> What are you doing on the Wall, when you were

> supposed to at the Beckett class with us?

>

> What

> gives?





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

TGO_54

Hey Eugene,

That SOB I work for said had to work late, and try to catch up on paperwork.

God, sometimes I hate Him!

I fixed him though, I came to the wall for a little while when he wasen't looking.

Sorry I missed you last night.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Maine Doug_19

The problem is everywhere

I just sold a kiln to one of my customers. The Paragon kiln is made in the US and arrived with a mis-fitting door. The gap allows to much heat to excape. Paragon's answer- suggested moving the glass closer to the elements and more towards the back of the kiln. Does not solve the problem of course but at least puts off dealing with the problem. More discussion and now they will fix it but will not pay shipping. We are still going around on that one. Funny, I thought the customer bought a new, properly manufactured kiln, designed and advertised to perform a specific function.
Must have have been assembled on a Monday....

mark smith

hasn't anyone here ever heard the term "BACKCHARGE "..???

We don't play the Mfgr/ Wholesaler game thier way ...

we get a leaker ..??

we ask'em who do they want to fix it ..??
do they have a contractor they would like to use..??
we get Full Labor Reimburesement, all our time at our Full rate....

'cause we take it off the bill

let the Ho'saler work it out with the Mfgr

with todays prices, there is no way to take it in the *ss on this crap

Eugene Silberstein 3

Point Well Made

With the costs of doing business nowadays, it's difficult to turn a profit even when things go well. On occasion, there are instances where something a contractor did will result in added expenses to remedy. These items are, or should be, factored into the cost of the job. My father used to tell me to "plan for the worst and hope for the best" when pricing a job.

However, as you guys mentioned, planning for manufacturer defects should not be factored into the equation as, in the past, we have grown, to a certain degree, to assume that equipment, parts and other system components will work as intended when they are removed from the box or crate.

I personally like Mark's approach to put the ball in the wholesaler's court, as they are, on many occasions, your first line of contact with the manufacturer.

One thing though, Mark.... Not to be a prude, but on behalf of our host, Dan, who is off teaching Night School tonight, would you please consider removing the last sentence of your post? Thanks in advance.

Tim Doran

Complex Problem

This whole returned goods/warranty thing is a very complex problem. When I look back at my contractor days I can easily understand what a drain this can be on a business. I can also see how out of balance the process seems to be.

Fast forward a few years and I put on my manufacturers hat. The problems are the same but with many more factors. I did a small study three years back and in a nut shell this is what I found.

1)Over 95% of the returned goods that I looked at were not defective or were out of date. Most of the products were controls and electronic components.
2)1% of the goods returned to us were not even ours.
3)95% of the claims that I looked at had seriously incomplete paperwork, to the point that it would be nearly impossible to proces the claim.

The resources required to managed the significant load that is developed by the amount of good product, out of date product, and incomplete information that is provided, robs manufacturers of the resources to effectively handle the real issues.

We put serious resourses towards this problem in the form of field technicians. There are several of these guys around the country that work on training, job site assistance, and technical support. One of the goals of this program was to decrease the amount of returned product that was not defective or that was mis-applied. The big question is how do we as an industry work together to improve products, improve installations, increase knowledge, and decrease that amount of good material that is returned to manufactures thus freeing up huge sums of money that can be available for the real issues. Just my opinion ofcourse, but it seems like a good topic of discussion.

Tim D.

RonWHC

Can't say the

equipment fails anymore than usual. The problem I see, more & more, is the "crap happens" attitude of the wholesalers, the reps, & the manufacturers. Very few can be trusted to tell you the truth about problems w/ their stuff. I get tired of hearing the same old "that's the first time I've heard of that problem." Yeah, sure.

We have a policy about paying charges for warranty material. We don't. As to labor reimbursement - had several overdue (some almost a year) charges. Finally deducted almost $3,200. from a monthly payment. Got their attention. Took another 90 days, but got paid.

Funny thing about all that hoop-te-do w/ model, & serial numbers, & installation dates. Most of the time the wholesaler is issued a credit & told to sh__can the old parts. It only takes 6 months. All to bust your ba__s, so maybe you won't go thru the trouble next time.

Eugene Silberstein 3

You're The First

Ron,

Have you read "Banging Zone Valves" in the "Hot Tech Topics" portion of this site?

References EXACTLY what you are saying.

Plumdog_2

Remember the Amtrol Watermakers?

It's been years since I had to replace a leaky 60 gal. TWICE at the same new million dollar house. I sent out labor charges for both times and never got a dime. Everybody claimed it must just be a fluke. One day I got hold of an engineer at the design place and he admitted that practically every one of them leaked. BUT THEY SOLD THEM ANYWAY! That was seven years ago and I'm still mad. They owe me 689.00. Same scenario with American Std. toilets. Send out all the defective first run Mexican experimental models and see how many come back!