Day of Decision on New Boiler...

Constantin

a high mass home like the one you're describing would benefit more from OR than a low-mass home. That is because the home can better take advantage of the thermal flywheel effect in the shoulder seasons than a low mass stick-built like the one I'm renovating.

Presumably, a high-mass home will be more prone to overheating if you have a sudden exterior shift to warmer conditions. This is where a OR controller can help, by anticipating the heating needs and adjusting the boiler to maximize your comfort and minimize your fuel bills.

I'd give Mike at Tekmar a call and see what he says (250-545-7749). He's a really great guy to talk to, and a great sounding board to bounce controls ideas off of.

Bob W._3

Day of Decision on New Boiler...

I finally got the 2nd proposal in from the Gas Company. Wasn't worth considering, as it was almost $4000 higher than the other proposal. (Both are from union shops who do commercial work; obviously one didn't want the job and bid it high).

So I am looking at a proposal to remove my 30+/- year old WM EGH 105, which still works well, and replace it with a Burnham IN8, steam trim, NG, M-M water feeder/cutoff combination, near boiler piping and electrical, for $6,725.00.

I am OK with the money. My question is whether I am doing the right thing. The WM, rated at 1125 Sq. Ft. of steam was properly sized for my 3 story home, which had 1079 sq. ft. of EDR. However, 300 sq. ft. of 3rd floor radiation is never used (it is one big open room and get heat through the concrete floor and a gas stove). We have also eliminated enough 2nd floor radiation to where the IN8 would be correctly sized, at a 1.5 pickup factor. Most people seem to replace their boilers when they are shot. The WM is definitely not shot but is oversized to the extent that it runs only 3-5 minutes before it satisfies the thermostat, and does this many times per hour. The venting is good, and there are no piping issues. The theory is to properly size the boiler to the radiation and get less cycles per hour and hopefully save enough money to pay for the new boiler in 10 years or so. We used 2966 therms last year and even a 20% savings would be enough for me. Gas is going up and we could start having real winters again. This is a single pipe steam system, BTW.

Is this the right thing to do? I had myself convinced but its the day to sign on the dotted line. I appreciate the help and advice I have received on this board. Thank you.

Bob Winzenburg
North Mankato, MN

jr_6

I wouldn't necessarily say that the contractor quoted you high to not get the job. Actually the $4k more from the second contractor sounds more acurate based off of the scope of work than the lower bid does. Hard for me to say without seeing the job first hand.

It isn't always "You get what you pay for", We sometimes say "You didn't get what you didn't pay for"...It is always important to compare apples to apples and quality of workmanship when deciding on a investment such as this.

Good Luck!

Bob W._3

Thanks. The low bid is from a quality P&H shop. But your point is well taken.

Steve Garson

How is your insulation and weatherstripping. You'll get your best ROI by tightening up your house, if you have not already.

Steve Garson

How is your insulation and weatherstripping. You'll get your best ROI by tightening up your house, if you have not already.

Bob W._3

Agreed, house is three bricks, no wall insulation (not feasible), plenty of attic insulation, old windows, relatively tight, with storms. Not much more can be done, other than eliminate some infiltration at the doors, etc.

Constantin

Hi Bob,

> I finally got the 2nd proposal in from the Gas

> Company. Wasn't worth considering, as it was

> almost $4000 higher than the other proposal.

> (Both are from union shops who do commercial

> work; obviously one didn't want the job and bid

> it high).

>

> So I am looking at a proposal to

> remove my 30+/- year old WM EGH 105, which still

> works well, and replace it with a Burnham IN8,

> steam trim, NG, M-M water feeder/cutoff

> combination, near boiler piping and electrical,

> for $6,725.00.

>

> I am OK with the money. My

> question is whether I am doing the right thing.

> The WM, rated at 1125 Sq. Ft. of steam was

> properly sized for my 3 story home, which had

> 1079 sq. ft. of EDR. However, 300 sq. ft. of 3rd

> floor radiation is never used (it is one big open

> room and get heat through the concrete floor and

> a gas stove). We have also eliminated enough 2nd

> floor radiation to where the IN8 would be

> correctly sized, at a 1.5 pickup factor. Most

> people seem to replace their boilers when they

> are shot. The WM is definitely not shot but is

> oversized to the extent that it runs only 3-5

> minutes before it satisfies the thermostat, and

> does this many times per hour. The venting is

> good, and there are no piping issues. The theory

> is to properly size the boiler to the radiation

> and get less cycles per hour and hopefully save

> enough money to pay for the new boiler in 10

> years or so. We used 2966 therms last year and

> even a 20% savings would be enough for me. Gas

> is going up and we could start having real

> winters again. This is a single pipe steam

> system, BTW.

>

> Is this the right thing to do? I

> had myself convinced but its the day to sign on

> the dotted line. I appreciate the help and

> advice I have received on this board. Thank

> you.

>

> Bob Winzenburg North Mankato, MN

Constantin

Hi Bob,

> I finally got the 2nd proposal in from the Gas

> Company. Wasn't worth considering, as it was

> almost $4000 higher than the other proposal.

> (Both are from union shops who do commercial

> work; obviously one didn't want the job and bid

> it high).

>

> So I am looking at a proposal to

> remove my 30+/- year old WM EGH 105, which still

> works well, and replace it with a Burnham IN8,

> steam trim, NG, M-M water feeder/cutoff

> combination, near boiler piping and electrical,

> for $6,725.00.

>

> I am OK with the money. My

> question is whether I am doing the right thing.

> The WM, rated at 1125 Sq. Ft. of steam was

> properly sized for my 3 story home, which had

> 1079 sq. ft. of EDR. However, 300 sq. ft. of 3rd

> floor radiation is never used (it is one big open

> room and get heat through the concrete floor and

> a gas stove). We have also eliminated enough 2nd

> floor radiation to where the IN8 would be

> correctly sized, at a 1.5 pickup factor. Most

> people seem to replace their boilers when they

> are shot. The WM is definitely not shot but is

> oversized to the extent that it runs only 3-5

> minutes before it satisfies the thermostat, and

> does this many times per hour. The venting is

> good, and there are no piping issues. The theory

> is to properly size the boiler to the radiation

> and get less cycles per hour and hopefully save

> enough money to pay for the new boiler in 10

> years or so. We used 2966 therms last year and

> even a 20% savings would be enough for me. Gas

> is going up and we could start having real

> winters again. This is a single pipe steam

> system, BTW.

>

> Is this the right thing to do? I

> had myself convinced but its the day to sign on

> the dotted line. I appreciate the help and

> advice I have received on this board. Thank

> you.

>

> Bob Winzenburg North Mankato, MN

Constantin

Hi Bob,

I guess the question it comes down to is how efficient the old vs. the new steamer is. Do you have any lue temperatures to refer to with the old unit?

The old unit definitely sounds oversized, particularly if it's short cycling. Whether you will achieve 20% savings though is difficult to say. I'd like the think that between a better controller (i.e. something equivalent to a Tekmar reset controller) and a better boiler fit that the goal should be achievable.

Bob W._3

The big Weil came with a flue damper that they could never get to work right, I believe. Long gone. Supposedly an 80% system, much like the new ones. They have downfired it (derated it) as much as it will go. I have my doubts about efficiency but no hard data. The short cycling alone must negatively affect that. Also, it is a single pipe steam in an old masonry home (brick walls and concrete floors) so I don't know how a reset controller would help matters. I would like some explanation on that one. It is not the kind of home you should do a setback in. Thanks.

[Deleted User]

I agree with jr...

and I get this same message all the time, "We got a quote from XZY P&H for HALF of what you quoted us!"

Now, why would I take the time (8 to 16 hours of design/estimation time) to bid this job high in hopes of NOT getting it? If I didn't want the work, I wouldn't have bid it in the first place. Also, if I'm trying to maintain a 50% profit margin, then that means that XZY P&H is going to be doing the job for MY cost without profit margin... Why should I work for ANYONE for free?

There are a LOT of inexperienced "boiler change out artists" out there that don't know their butt from a hole in the ground, and they're the ones that are here today, and gone tomorrow, and you're left holding the bag.

You'd be wise to compare more than prices. Look deeply into the proposal and see what the low bidder is leaving out. You'll probably need it to get what you thought you were going to get for the price, that being COMFORT.

The low bid is NOT the best or most appropriate bid, it's just the low bid. And in order to be the lowest bid, they had to cut a lot of critical things out of the picture.

Being a union shop has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I know because we're non union, losing work to low ball union shops every day.

Quality comes with a price. You'd be wise to pay for it now, and avoid the headaches/hassles later.

How do you put a price on comfort? You can't. But I know some attornies that can and HAVE put a price on dis-comfort!

ME

Bob W._3

I certainly didn't mean to start a union vs. non-union argument. The low bid is from an experienced P&H shop that has done execellent work for me before, when they replumbed the house; since I have all concrete floors everthing had to be done with tapcons and hangers, and they did a very good job. Also, there is no difference in the work to be done in the proposals. It is a steam boiler change-out. Both knew that the near boiler piping had to be properly done, in iron.

It is becoming apparent that I should not have discussed pricing in my original post.

[Deleted User]

A recommendation then...

and yes, you are correct in your assertion regarding price. We'd prefer NOT to discuss prices around here.

If there is nothing technically wrong with the 80% efficient boiler other than being oversized, which most are, then why change it out? If what you're trying to do is increase comfort and energy savings, I'd suggest that you consider installing non electric thermostatic radiator valves on all of the radiators in the house except the one that is being seen by the thermostat.

Additionally, the installation of a tekmar steam boiler reset control will reduce the run time of the system. I'd also recommend you install a vapor stat on the boiler.

All in all, if the boiler does fail, all of these items are still applicable and can be reused with the new smaller system.

Good luck in your endeavors, and sorry for venting on you about prices.

ME

Bob W._3

Thank you for the recommendation. I am considering it.

Bob W._3

Thanks, Constantin. I did talk with Mike (from Germany) at Tekmar about the 269 controller. Will look into it.

Actually, our home doesn't overheat much. The thermostat stays dead on 68, much better than a forced air system. We don't get a lot of "sudden exterior shift to warmer conditions" in this part of the country. It tends to get cold and stay cold. Mike did explain that the controller could regulate the amount of times the boiler comes on during a given period, which may help the short cycling. I have to think about that one, however. If the controller only lets the boiler come on say 2x/hour, and the boiler runs until the controller's thermostat is satisfied, doesn't this mean we will get higher temp swings?